Melissa McCarthy: Sex, Nuns & Ghosts
October 11, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Hi pod squad. Welcome back to, We Can Do Hard Things. We have a treat and a half. It’s 12 treats.
Amanda Doyle:
A dozen treats.
Glennon Doyle:
All right.
Amanda Doyle:
We have a box of dozen treats.
Melissa McCarthy:
I’ve never been called a dozen treats. Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. Do you hear that voice? Okay. When we heard that this person agreed to be on our podcast, we had a text chain celebratory moment. We were so freaking excited. Okay, you all, Melissa McCarthy.
Melissa McCarthy:
Oh my god, I’m so excited and I’m weirdly nervous to be here. I don’t know why. I think I’m really excited.
Glennon Doyle:
Melissa McCarthy is an award-winning writer, producer, and actor. Her work includes Bridesmaids, Can You Ever Forgive Me, Ghostbusters, Gilmore Girls, and Samantha Who?. She won an Emmy Award and People’s Choice Award for her role in Mike and Molly, as well as an Emmy for Saturday Night Live. I’m laughing just thinking about all of this.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
Melissa and her husband, Ben Falcone, who we’re excited to talk about, your relationship is so beautiful, founded On The Day Productions, and have produced Tammy, The Boss, Life of the Party, and Bob Ross, Happy Accidents, Betrayal and Greed. Melissa McCarthy, welcome to, We Can Do Hard Things.
Melissa McCarthy:
Wow, what a way to start if off guys. I must be old. It’s weird to hear a list of that because they’re such a part of us, but when you hear it in the list you’re like, “All right, I did that.”
Abby Wambach:
Not old, badass.
Glennon Doyle:
Amazing.
Abby Wambach:
And I actually want to start with, you and I both went to Catholic schools growing up.
Melissa McCarthy:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
And I wanted to know how your experience was.
Melissa McCarthy:
Good and bad. I was raised Catholic. There were certain things about it that I liked. I did find myself often getting sent to the principal for things that now as an adult I think back, and I just had questions. I remember one of the sisters saying, I think it was our first foray into world religions, and I’m from a small farm town in Illinois, so anything with world in it, I was like, “How exotic, how wonderfully exotic.” And I just didn’t know anything. There’s no internet. If you didn’t experience it, you really didn’t know much about it. And I was little, I was probably in third grade. And I remember her talking about other religions and then it was also mentioned, “But of course the best one is Catholicism.”
Melissa McCarthy:
And I said, “Well, why?” I said, “Isn’t the whole thing that whole thing that maybe none of them are better?” And then the energy changed in the room.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, it did.
Melissa McCarthy:
And I said, “How do you know that you are right?” And she was like, “Because God would’ve told me.” And I really wasn’t trying to be a smart ass, I said, “Well, okay. So God would tell you if you’re wrong, then why hasn’t God told everyone else that they’re wrong if they are wrong?” And she just said, “You should go to the principal’s office.” I’m like, “Why am I the only nerd that actually had questions.” I’m like, “Regarding the reading.” And they just didn’t want to talk about it. And I get that you’re questioning someone’s basic fiber and what they’ve built their world on. But I was so ready to be like, “Well, let’s talk about it.”
Melissa McCarthy:
And I never liked the priest to nun ratio. I felt that the nuns got very subservient. And I remember being in second grade being like, “Well, that’s weird.” It’s almost bowing when he came in. And I was like, “That doesn’t seem right.” I didn’t know why I didn’t like it, but I didn’t like that. And so many of the lessons like be kind, love, there was so much good goodness to it. I don’t practice anymore. I don’t think you have to be inside a certain building to have a relationship with whatever you think of as God. And if you do, if you find solace in that, I think it’s great. I don’t. I think it’s become bit of a business, which I’m sure would really infuriate so many people, including my family.
Abby Wambach:
Well, I credit you.
Melissa McCarthy:
I can’t believe I just said that. I’m in trouble.
Amanda Doyle:
Your principal’s knocking, Melissa.
Abby Wambach:
I credit you though because you actually asked the questions. In eighth grade, I was too scared. The Catholic guilt is real.
Melissa McCarthy:
It’s real. I think because I was younger, I didn’t even know yet to be like, “Ooh, this isn’t going to go over well.” I didn’t know it was a trick question. Do you have any questions means don’t have any questions. Other than saying, “Boy, all those other religions are wrong,” I always say the wrong thing. It’s my talent.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a beautiful thing. Something you said that I felt very attached to, you said, “I’m a shark, I have to keep moving, keep moving.” You know how sharks they stop breathing if they stop moving. And I am like that too. And I just wondered, is that your way of being or do you ever worry like I do, that the need to keep moving, keep moving is just an effort not to be still?
Melissa McCarthy:
Yes, on both sides of the coin. I think it is my natural tendencies. I’m constantly moving and I do always say I’m a shark. I have to be in motion, be moving, doing something. I like doing things. And I do think I fill my day probably with too much sometimes. Ben is very calm and very steady and sometimes he’s like, “It is okay to stop and just be in the room.” Instead of me being like, “I haven’t lifted that chair in a year and a half, what’s under it?” He’s like, “You’ve been working for six weeks.” I’m like, “I’m going to roll the whole couch.” The poor man walks in and the couch is literally turned upside down and then I’m down another wormhole of, “Should I put casters on this?” And he’s like, “I don’t know what’s going on. You’ve worked for six months, this is your first day off and you have taken apart furniture.”
Melissa McCarthy:
But then I’m like, “Well, I have to because I want to make it nice for everybody.” I’m just constantly moving and then I’m trying… I like it because I like puttering and fixing things for people. But yeah, sometimes Ben’s just like… I’ve come in and I’m holding up clothes to his back because I shopped for him and he’s like, “Sometimes it may cross over, it’s too much.” I just am like, “Hey, should we go into your closet and make outfits?” He’s like, “No, we should not, we should not do that ever.”
Glennon Doyle:
So Abby and I, we’ve watched every movie of yours again last.
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
We’ve been hanging out with you and we’ve been reading a lot about you and Ben. And it’s just like you worked together, you raised your girls and it’s beautiful. And the way you talk about each other is so beautiful. And Abby, we read one interview where I think Ben was talking about you, and Abby looked at me and she goes, “They remind me of lesbians.”
Melissa McCarthy:
First of all, thank you for the compliment.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. It’s our ultimate compliment.
Melissa McCarthy:
I’m always like, “You’re such a better human than I am.” He’s just literally, there’s no other side of Ben. He is exactly who he is. He’s the weirdest person I have ever met. And that’s high praise. And he’s just steady and endlessly kind. He takes a minute. He always calls me fists of justice. I immediately, I respond. The second something happens, I’m like, “Oh my God, what are we going to do? This is outrageous.” And Ben’s like, “We could sit and think about it and probably there is a way to help.” But I’m already, “My car is in reverse. I’m out the driveway just flipping off the universe.” And he’s like, “You want to come on back because there’s actually a hotline and we could help the…” I’m like, “Okay.” He’s like, “Where were you driving to?” I’m like, “I don’t know, but I figured we need to activate.”
Melissa McCarthy:
There were two physicists that were like, there’s the mosquito and the… What is it? Not the barge but it’s like a submarine. And one is just spinning and turning, spinning and turning, and the other just slowly goes. And they worked together as a team for years. And they said both were great but they could never have come up with all the things they did without that weird dynamic. And there’s something to that. You couldn’t take two of me. That seems terrible. And probably two of Ben wouldn’t be a good balance either. But yeah, he’s just the greatest. I feel like I can’t even imagine a minute of my life without him. Not a minute.
Abby Wambach:
And I love that he shows himself in certain moments of movies that you star in. And I actually have become accustomed to waiting for it.
Glennon Doyle:
And we pause it. They’re like, “Kids, that’s Melissa’s actual husband.” And they’re like, “I know that. You do that every time.”
Abby Wambach:
It’s my thing.
Melissa McCarthy:
I always try to get him to do bigger parts in it, but when he’s directing, as he usually does with our stuff, he’s like, “No, that’s a terrible idea.” So he only takes the littlest parts. But I’m like, “Or you can take a bigger part.” And he’s like, “No, someone is supposed to be steering the ship.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Melissa McCarthy:
But I love it.
Amanda Doyle:
Your fists of justice, I’ve been working into my lexicon lately, run around the block, run around the block. Can you tell us about your skill because I too am a shark, I too have fits of justice. I’m a way less talented Melissa McCarthy.
Melissa McCarthy:
That is not true at all. My god. Because I’m often failing at it, I’m forever trying to get better at running around the block. Which does mean to me when something happens that I don’t immediately jump up. I think because we do run our own things, I take great responsibility with how people are treated. And since I get to have that umbrella that I’m so grateful for, I also take it really serious that if someone is being treated poorly that I’m like, “What?” And I’m like, “I have to go stop this right now.” And I just lurch at everything because I think that just can’t happen. And if you can do something, and often I feel lucky enough that I am the one that can come and be like, “You can’t do that. You can’t talk to people like that or you can’t behave like that,” what I always wish is that I said I would handle things so well if when I heard that I went, “I’ll be right back.”
Melissa McCarthy:
And if I could just actually run a block, then I would come back and be like, “John, I need to chat with you.” Instead I go immediately to John and I’m like ah. Everything is on 22. And then sometimes I do run around the block and then sometimes I don’t. And I always come back in, and especially people that know me really well, they’re like, “Did you run around the block?” And I’m like, “I did not. I did not run around the block. I thought about it and I did run around.” And then sometimes if I do run around the block, I’m literally, “Guys, I ran the block” and it’s progress until I don’t run around the block again. So if that made any sense.
Glennon Doyle:
It makes total sense.
Melissa McCarthy:
It’s that waiting time though. That waiting time, if you really physically did it, I feel like it’s the car ride home where you finally are like, “Well, now I know what I would’ve said.” Or any audition, I’m amazing in my car on the way home because you’ve just waited and calmed down. So it’s what I’m always striving to be better at.
Glennon Doyle:
My confusion about that with myself is, I understand fits of justice when I have forgotten to run around the block. But what I don’t understand about myself is, when I’m about to start fits of justice and I think I should run around the block and then I think nope, fits of justice. It’s like purposely overriding self even when you know that you’re going to be apologizing later is an interesting pattern.
Melissa McCarthy:
It’s the best and worst. I’m glad that I’m not like, “I don’t care.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Melissa McCarthy:
I would hate that. I’m sure Ben and many people that know me would be like, “We could hit a sweet middle. We could rather hit a sweet middle between these two things.” But I’m, I’m not a great gray area person. I’m working on it. It is a study that does not come naturally for me. I sound like a monster.
Abby Wambach:
No. The beauty of people like you and my wife and Amanda, because I’m a little bit more like Ben, we need people like you because we are here and put on planet earth to support and keep peace and work calm and cool and patient and collected. But nothing would go right if you guys weren’t around.
Glennon Doyle:
I could not agree more. I could not agree more With that analysis. So you and then are raising two girls. They’re two teenage girls.
Melissa McCarthy:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay same. So what we have figured out, which is upsetting about parenting, is that in order to teach them, you have to know what you think. Parenting, it almost demands that you figure out what you think about things because they’re going to ask you questions.
Melissa McCarthy:
Yeah, then you have to back it up.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Have evidence.
Melissa McCarthy:
Yeah. My parents who are wonderful human beings, at that age, if you asked a question that was complicated, they would be like, “Don’t worry about it.” And we were done. And they said it lovingly, they’re incredibly loving people but we just didn’t delve into things and that’s not the way of the world, which is great. Do you feel like you are clarifying your thoughts more than you thought you would just because you have to explain it?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Our family is always having these ongoing conversations about sex. She usually takes over because she has less shame and guilt and confusion and then she didn’t think she was straight her whole life. It’s confusing for me.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re like, “You’re coming to me figure this out. I figured it out five years ago.”
Glennon Doyle:
But I’m confused about everything. So I’m like, “Sex is good and beautiful except sometimes it’s not. Just be open except also be closed.” How do you talk to your girls… If your girls were asked, “What’s mom’s philosophy about sex?” what would they say?
Melissa McCarthy:
Oh Lord. First of all, I think they would be like, “I’m so cringing right now.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, same with us.
Melissa McCarthy:
I probably don’t do enough. We’ve had the talk, which I did incredibly awkwardly because I knew it was going to come. I always thought, I’m like I’m going to do it so early because we are open about anything and they can come to me for anything. But there is still a Midwestern former Catholic person that’s like, “If we talk about sex, the lightning bolt comes down.” And so I did very awkwardly right before she went to school, the day they were going to talk about it at school, I’m like, I’m certainly not having someone else initiate that conversation with my child. So we were literally in the backyard picking up after the dog so it’s really a wonderful time. And I was like well one person goes and then and Vivy just goes, “Oh dear God, is this happening?” And I was like, “There is different parts of bodies so be it.” But at least I was like, “Just let me be awkward and get through it.”
Melissa McCarthy:
But I think they know that as long as whoever you are with is incredibly kind and respectful and only lifts you up, we talk about that a lot, that whoever your love will be and it may change and you don’t have to pick a side, you can pick a side, you don’t have to pick a side, you never know what’s going to happen. I said that person has to be incredibly happy when you succeed and incredibly supportive when you fail. And if those are ever switched, I said, that’s the biggest red flag on earth. And nothing should make you feel uncomfortable. Thank you, now I have to go have a better talk with them. I feel like I’ve been skirting it.
Abby Wambach:
No, it’s so good. It’s interesting because I came into the family six years ago, so I’m not biological mom. And so there was a little bit of easier transition in the conversation for me to have. And because of the way that we were brought up, I have completely counteracted the Catholicism that lives inside of me. I didn’t ever get the sex talk. I didn’t ever get the sex talk. And then when we were in Catholic school, it was all… What is the word to not have sex?
Glennon Doyle:
Abstinence.
Abby Wambach:
Abstinence.
Glennon Doyle:
It seemed to really stick in with you.
Abby Wambach:
No. Well, I was a rebel from the beginning.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s a very reliable strategy so it’s a shame didn’t follow it.
Abby Wambach:
It’s so hard to have the conversations.
Melissa McCarthy:
It is and they know so much. My kids are so much more aware of the world and they’re such little activists. I always say, “I don’t think anyone will ever tread on them. They just won’t stand for it.” Which is, I don’t know how I could be more proud of them. They’re just so well balanced and they’re not afraid to speak up if something is really wrong. Both of them are like, they will stand up and say this is not right, this is not okay when it’s really needed. And I think I do have to talk to them more about all of that to their… They’ll be like, “Oh geez.” But then I know the more you talk about it, then they will come to you and they will actually talk to you about it. And not a word was ever spoken.
Melissa McCarthy:
With my parents… My parents don’t know how to get out of podcast so I think it’s okay. I remember it was in grade school toward it must have been seventh or eighth grade and there was a sleepover at someone’s house, I can’t remember. And out came some kind of sex book and I was like, “Oh my god.” I’d never seen anything. Before I actually laid eyes on it, somehow parents got brought up and I said, “Well, I know my mom and dad don’t have sex.” First of all, I think they all knew how dumb are you? And I said, “I know for a fact they can’t have sex because my dad cannot do middle splits.” And I literally thought, I was like, “Boom. So take that.” And they were like, “What are you talking about? Middle splits?” I didn’t know that there was an erection. So I thought, “Well it points down from what I know and so the only way to have sex is I thought both participants had to do middle splits and then keep wedging and then somehow that’s how a baby is formed.”
Melissa McCarthy:
I literally was like, “Neither of my parents could do middle splits,” and just the room of these young girls were like, “I don’t know where to even begin with what you’ve said.”
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you for the gift of that.
Melissa McCarthy:
And not even realizing you have a sister, clearly they’ve had sex at least twice. But I was like, “Nope, they’re not that flexible.”
Glennon Doyle:
But you were like, they must have been at some point, that flexible.
Melissa McCarthy:
But I’ve been taught a lot about the Mary and the Immaculate Conception, which another question that I was like, “Don’t we assume that there has to be such shame that she can only be good if she got pregnant by not having sex.” Even as a kid I was like, “I don’t know what sex is but I’m pretty sure it’s part of having a baby.’ And they’re like, “No, it’s not. Here’s the thing, you don’t have to have sex to have a baby.” I’m like, “What a thing to be teaching.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. The immaculate conception, the flip side of abstinence is, good news, you can have a baby or not have a baby using abstinence. Speaking of your parents, didn’t you describe your sweet parents as having been carved from marzipan?
Melissa McCarthy:
Yes, I do, especially my mom. My dad’s feistier and he’s always on the move. He’s 82, he’s unbelievable. He remembers everything. He moves 100 miles an hour. He’s constantly, “What do you need? What do you want to do?” And I actually just went home and visited for a week. So I was in Plainfield, Illinois and we would just sit in the backyard and it’s primarily just them being like, “Oh, there goes that guy. There goes that guy. And it’s another squirrel. Oh, look at this buster over there.” It’s the same squirrel, just in a different position of the yard. And then my dad just walking around with a fly swatter outside because he’s going to put an end of those flies. I’m like, “Dad, we’re not being bothered by them, you’re hunting them.”
Glennon Doyle:
That feels unfair.
Melissa McCarthy:
So they’re just, at any given point, even when I remember when I called them because I thought I was going to finish college in New York and after I don’t even know if it had been 48 hours, I was like, “So I’m not going to go back to college, I’m going to do stand up.” And I was just waiting to hear the response and my mom’s like, “Well, okay, probably.” And I was like, “What?” I was like, “Do you have any thoughts on it?” “Well, I find fashion very unreliable.” I was like, “So you’re encouraging me to go into the rock steady world of standup comedy?” And they said, “Well why not you?” They’re like, “You’re a hard worker and if you work hard enough at it and get good at it, why not you?” And it is the basis for why I wasn’t kid from a farm doesn’t go to LA and say I’m going to be an actor. That math equation doesn’t add up, I think unless you have parents that are like, “Yeah, why not? Of course you can. You’re a really hard worker.”
Melissa McCarthy:
Their work ethic is so strong. I think it’s why I work so hard and I enjoy what I do, but their work ethic is something, it’s remarkable. That feels filtered into me. But also, there was never a thought… And anything, I couldn’t do back a handspring. My dads like, “Yes you can, you just don’t know how to do it yet, so go ahead and do it.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” And then I kicked him in the head quite violently. But this sweetness remains.
Glennon Doyle:
The sweetness. Oh my God because so many of us try to protect our kids from the world’s rejection by rejecting them. We’re afraid the world’s going to say no to them so we say no first. You can’t do, it won’t work.
Melissa McCarthy:
I know. If I could physically wrap my children in bubble wrap, I would be like… I wanted to put a chip in my kids and Ben was like, “That’s awful.” And I was like, “Well, we have chips in our dogs.” I said, “Why can’t I chip the kids?” He’s like, “You want to go to the vet and have them chip our children?” And I was like, “Can we do that?” He’s like, “We’re not going to have this conversation.” I was like, “We are in it.”
Glennon Doyle:
Because I think it has something to do with human rights.
Melissa McCarthy:
That’s what he said. I was like, “They’re little, they don’t have rights yet. They don’t own anything.” I don’t mean that, they have human rights.
Glennon Doyle:
So we’re always talking on this pod about generational things we’re trying to break. So and Ben have those things that you brought that you’re trying to do differently with your babes?
Melissa McCarthy:
Yes. Even with my parents so sweet I went through a really gothic phase, which I loved. I think it’s probably why I ended up loving character so much. I was like, “I don’t want to be me.” But you put Robert Smith hair on a five foot Irish gal, she’s suddenly a little more interesting. At least it was to myself. I try to, whenever they’re going through phases, I want to never, even if it is something that’s really funny or this will be funny later, I try to always think of it as what it means to them that I’m wearing these Frozen boots for eight months straight. Georgie went through a phase where she just had these little black boots like that Anna wore on Frozen. And then I was just always, instead of being like, “This is so cute, you’re going to remember this,” and almost there’s a mocking this to that, instead I tried to always be aware to be like, “Those boots are incredible because they made her feel good.”
Melissa McCarthy:
So I was like, “Don’t diminish or make cutesy something that for whatever reason she wanted those boots on and they empowered her.” My mom lovingly, but would always come in with the disposable camera and be like, “You’re going to get such a kick out of you later and take a picture of me.” And I was like, “Stop. It’s not a joke, it’s not a costume,” as I was literally in a full costume. But I try not to do that or I try not to… I’m a real fiddler so I try not to be like, “That’s great or…”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Melissa McCarthy:
Which I’m always like, “If I would just have ended the sentence after great.”
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. It’s just this constant project, and people aren’t projects, are they?
Melissa McCarthy:
No. Especially my oldest daughter she truly is like, “I don’t car. It’s a shirt.” Sometimes its an amazing outfit and she really has the heart of an artist. They’re both really creative. And I get such a kick out of that. And then when it’s just like, I’m in pajama bottoms and what I slept at and I’m like, “Or what about that Victorian skirt? What about that with a Doc Martin? Oh, is that fun?” And she’s like, “No, not today.” She’s more Ben and I’m always trying to be like, “Do you want me to run upstairs and get it and we just look at it?” She’s like, “No, that’s okay.” No malice. But I can always feel myself where I’m like, if I could just again run around the block instead I’m like, “I’m just going to go get it. And it’s going to be fun to look at.” And Ben’s like, “Don’t do what you’re doing.”
Abby Wambach:
Well, it makes me actually think of the first thing you do when you get a new role or a character, is you go to the wig store. Why do you do that?
Melissa McCarthy:
One, it’s my super happy place. I think I love a wig shop because in makeup and costume it’s all such a big part of it. I think there’s something so altering about a wig that I find really magical because it’s not just like, well it’s a different color, it’s a different texture, it’s something that you really can’t be because I’m not that. And I can put it on and I feel like this is as close as I can truly get to walking in somebody else’s shoes. It seems silly because it’s such a superficial thing but I can put on a wig, and I’ll try on 40 wigs, and when I get the right one I’m like, “Oh, well she loves grape juice.” And I just suddenly have all these very weird specific things that I feel like I know to be true in my heart.
Melissa McCarthy:
And I know it’s all conjured, but a wig, it’s the fun of acting for me because sometimes I don’t always quite know what to do with myself as me, but when I step into somebody else’s shoes, I feel like, “Well, I know how they feel about it.” It’s much more difficult to sometimes state my own opinion, not that I’m tentative at all, but sometimes I’m like, “I don’t know.” I see the good and the bad and this and this, but if I’m someone else, I’m like, “They don’t like it and here’s 15 reasons why they don’t like it.” I can really be more succinct with it. I don’t know what that says about me as me.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s cool.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like your respect for your characters. You have such a profound respect for the characters that you play. And it’s wild thinking about you put on the wig and you’re like, “Now I know she loves scraped juice. Now I know…” It’s so multidimensional, every single character that you play.
Melissa McCarthy:
I truly love people that walk to just complete their own rhythm. I find it so beautiful to watch. I find it fascinating. I used to always go, Big Lots was my favorite place to go because there used to be one on Western that was gigantic and it reminded me of home, it was an old dime store. It really was the place I went a couple times a week and I would just walk around for an hour because you saw the most eclectic group of people. They would never all be in the same place. And there was just always somebody in there that’s doing their own thing. She doesn’t care and she’s not causing trouble but it’s like, “I’m all in purple and I wear purple and everything on me is purple.” And then I follow them to the car and their car is purple.
Melissa McCarthy:
And Ben would say, “Stop following people. It’s getting weird.” I also think they’re the people that get the eye rolls or get, “They’re so strange or they’re off putting.” I don’t want people to be mean to people. I don’t like that. But when someone’s just like, “This is what it is. I get up, I put this armor on every day and if it’s all purple, if I only wear plaid, and I do these strange things,” I just love that there’s still people out there that can just own who they are and they don’t have to be, especially now with I feel like social media, it’s like, “Do you like my vacation? Do you like my holiday decorations?” I’m like, “What are we doing? Who cares? Why are you showing?”
Melissa McCarthy:
So when I see someone who’s traditionally a little more off, I’m so enamored with those people that when I get to play them, I really do love them. I feel like I’ve gotten to know all these different women because of those roles and I love them for all their flaws and all their mistakes and their good and bad points. I just love it.
Glennon Doyle:
And is this why you also are obsessed with, and maybe you’re not obsessed, I am projecting that because I share this with you, but I read that you enjoy going to vintage stores and finding random portraits of people.
Melissa McCarthy:
I love a portrait. No, I’m obsessed. I love it. And you love it too, right?
Glennon Doyle:
The whole entrance of my… And people will say, “Who is that?” And I’m like, “I don’t know, but look at them.”
Melissa McCarthy:
That’s the whole point. I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t know but she loves grape juice.
Melissa McCarthy:
She loves grape juice. I also think, why isn’t this person with their family? I always feel like I have to be like, “Oh my god, I can’t leave Bernice piled in a corner of some thrift store.” So I bring Bernice home because Bernice now has friends because there’s 24 of them in my office.” And I’m like, “They’re alone. Now all these people are together.” Ben is very terrified of portraits. He’s just like, “They’re haunting us.” He does not like them at all. And now the kids are like, “No more portraits, it’s weird.” And I was like, “I think you’re lying. I think you like them.” And they’re like, “No, we’re telling you we don’t like them.” They have caught me coming into the house and they’re like, “Do have one? You promised.” I’m like, “I never promised.” I’m going to rescue each time I find one, I love them.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s something like what you do in your work, I’m just saying it’s these people that aren’t being seen and then you’re like, “No, that person does not belong in the corner. I’m going to bring that person up, put them right on the wall.”
Melissa McCarthy:
And if she’s standing next to a horse very proudly, all the better.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. That’s exactly right.
Amanda Doyle:
I don’t even remember what happened, but I remember reading an apology that you gave, it was a video. And it was such a gorgeous example of how to apologize that I saved it and I showed it to our whole team and was just like, “This is it. This is correct.” So what makes a good apology and why do 99% of the time we all suck at it?
Melissa McCarthy:
Well, I don’t know if I was good at it. We literally were doing 21 days of kindness.
Amanda Doyle:
No good deed goes unpunished, Melissa. Going to have to apologize for that.
Melissa McCarthy:
One of the charities we picked, which on paper and everything we vetted, looked tremendous. And then literally the day we’re like, “Here’s the day, support this cause,” we found out that they were also doing all these terrible things, were completely homophobic. The headline for what the charity was doing was one thing. And then as we got deeper into it and I thought, “My God, I’m trying to raise money for this,” and it was trying to catch something in the air I felt so bad, I just felt terrible. But also think if you, “Oh my God, all I do is mess up,” if you can’t mess up and then go, “Oh my God, I screwed up so badly,” and then just say, in all honesty, “I missed it. We didn’t know. We never would’ve done this.”
Melissa McCarthy:
So I think it’s sincere and I don’t think it has to be so… I’m sure I was rambling. That’s another thing I try to teach the girls, “You’re going to screw up constantly. It’s just part of being human. You just have to really own it when you do and you have to own it quickly and you have to own it 200%.” And I did wonder, I was like, “Oh, I wonder if there’s going to be fury about this because it really was an organization that I would never, ever backed by 5 billion miles.” And really, people were just like, “That’s okay. We all make mistakes.” I was so pleased by the response because I do worry sometimes that the concept of one and done, I don’t know any humans that are able to do that and fit into that world.
Melissa McCarthy:
And if you really sincerely apologize and you mean it, I think it takes some of the pressure off of everybody.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Melissa McCarthy:
Because if it’s okay to go, “Oh my God, I couldn’t have done that worse if I tried, I’m so sorry,” instead of we’re all supposed to be perfect and say the right things and use the right words. I’m like, “I’m going to screw up 20 times a day for sure and so is everybody else.” So if you’re just sincere about it, I certainly felt like I had screwed up by backing that. But then I’m like, “All I can do is say I screwed up.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, quickly and completely. I have found that people are so unused to hearing other people own anything completely, that when they hear that, they’re so amazed by it, they’re so excited that somebody finally apologized without excuses and all the…
Abby Wambach:
You can hear a real apology instead of a fake one.
Melissa McCarthy:
The response from so many people now, I always see people as giant toddlers, that if they cover their eyes, they’re like, “You can’t see me.” You’re like, “Well I can because you’re in the room.” And they’re like, “No you can’t,” with so much in the last, especially four, five years of just like, you don’t have a black headband on. I’m like, “No, I’m literally wearing a black head band.” Nope you’re not. I think everybody wants to be like, “If I just kind of duck and cover, no one will notice what I did.” And so nobody either rises or falls. It’s just this weird cowering because no one wants to get called out. I would love to hear a politician just be like, “God I screwed that up. I couldn’t have screwed that up worse.” I think the world would just be so amazed and charmed by that coming from people that are in theory supposed to be helping people.
Abby Wambach:
Agreed.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s so good because when you just say owning it without the 14 asterisks that are like, “But here’s what we did, but here’s why it shouldn’t have happened and here’s why someone else is actually to blame but I’m being big by apologizing,” people are then responding to your explanation. Whereas if you just say, “I blew it and I’m sorry,” then people respond to you saying that as opposed to inviting them to be like, “Well, was my explanation sufficient?”
Melissa McCarthy:
The sincerity of it. We all have that little meter and you can tell when someone’s bullshitting or not or doing it to be like, “I know it wasn’t exactly right, but these were our motives,” you can never trust that person again. There’s a thing that’s broken, especially if that’s a repeated thing, you just need to come out and don’t couch it. You have to really throw your whole self into, you screwed up. I think you can rebuild anything on that basis.
Glennon Doyle:
Agreed. I read that you said this recently, “I don’t do the thing anymore of yeah, I don’t like how that person treats people or treats me, but they’re still in my circle. We’re not all going to be friends and if you treat people like garbage, I don’t care if you’re nice to me, I can see that and I can take them off the list a lot easier than I used to.” Can you operationalize that for us? How do you draw a boundary with someone if there’s somebody in your life who you’ve just found out is an, what do you do? How do you say it?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. Is it internally being like, that person is done for me? Or is it externally, do you have to actually do something?
Melissa McCarthy:
I think it depends on, if it’s someone who’s really in my heart, it’s a conversation and is there a way through this? Are you in a bad place? Is something happening? And then if it is like, “No, this is really how I feel,” then I’m like, “Okay. Then we part ways.” If it’s a business thing, we do crazy checks on everybody because we don’t want to work with the person that is screaming at someone in the room or being terrible. But if it’s not in my heart circle, it’s very easy, no matter what the offer is, I don’t choose to work with people that have come out and said things or just treat people abusively. No job is worth that to me. I’d rather miss out. It’s hard when they’re people you love. It’s really sticky when it’s people in your family or you’re in your tight rings when all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, we may be completely in opposing positions on some pretty huge things in life.”
Melissa McCarthy:
That’s something that naively I thought I’d never have to deal with but it comes up. And then I try to think about it in terms of, as much as I wouldn’t want them to call me and say, “I think everything you think is incorrect, will you change?” because I’d be like, “I can’t turn against my basic beliefs,” and so I do try to hold some space for people that I think right now is not the time, they’re not able to maybe see a different way. So I do put them in a different category of I know what I’m dealing with, but if I stay the course, will I be there for them when they maybe are like, “Oh, I hadn’t thought about that.” Especially with, I think religion and politics and everything right now gets so crazy and no one’s going to change my opinion.
Melissa McCarthy:
If you’re like, “Well, I don’t think two people with the same gender can be married,” there’s no version of a world where someone’s going to talk to me and I’m going to go, “You’re right.” I’m just trying to hold the space for someone so maybe at the right time, maybe I can be part of them going, “Just do no harm.” If you do no harm, you don’t want someone to tell you what to do, they don’t want to be told, I try to hold space but I back off a little. I’ve done that with people that I’m certainly rooting for them to come around to a more open and loving way of seeing the world, but I do worry about if I completely cut them out, again, not everybody, certain people, that maybe they don’t have someone that will ever be the influence or being around my kids might make them be like… It’s a tricky sticky… There’s no way to do it. I think it’s a person by person basis and it’s messy and it’s heartbreaking. And I do try to run around the block a lot with that so I don’t really step in it.
Abby Wambach:
Okay. So I was so freaking excited when I read what you said. And you said, “I believe in ghosts.” I had an experience with the ghost. Me too. What was your experience? Was it Ghostbusters?
Melissa McCarthy:
What was yours?
Abby Wambach:
Well, I was living in an apartment and I saw a little girl in a dress, white dress. And she lived there with me for the seven years that I lived in my apartment.
Melissa McCarthy:
Did you see her multiple times?
Abby Wambach:
Oh yeah, like 20 times.
Melissa McCarthy:
Oh my God.
Glennon Doyle:
Abby was also on a lot of drugs for a while.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that was during pretty intense drinking, drugging.
Glennon Doyle:
But what was your experience?
Melissa McCarthy:
Well, my great great-grandmother lived with us on the farm and when she passed away, I’ve had two different things, when she passed away, I was just distraught, we were very, very close and I was crying in my room and then all of a sudden I just felt a really strong presence and she was in my little bedroom. And it was just a look and I just knew everything was okay and I was like… and just went downstairs and my mom’s like, “Are you feeling better?” I’m like, “Yeah” because I was upset about my great-grandmother passing away, and I was like, “Yeah, I think great-grandma’s fine, she was just in my room.” And my mom was like… She was just like, “Well, we’re not going to touch that topic.”
Amanda Doyle:
She’s like, “Probably.”
Melissa McCarthy:
And then I said it casually and then I had another thing with my mom’s mom. I was in LA at the time and she had passed away and I had just gotten the call and I was driving, and I was crying really hard and my sweet dad had given me his car that I had in LA, and I’d probably had it nine months, but I’d never gone in the glove compartment ever. I don’t keep anything in there, I couldn’t reach it, I’m too short from the driver’s side. But I was like, “I need a Kleenex,” and I was like, “He probably had Kleenex in here so I’m looking all over.” The first time I opened the little door to the glove compartment and a picture, and I swear I’m not lying, this little picture flipped out and landed on the passenger seat facing up.
Melissa McCarthy:
And it was a portrait of my grandmother who two minutes earlier I had heard passed away that I didn’t have it in there and my dad’s like, “I don’t remember putting it in the glove compartment, but I must have.” And it was just sitting there on the seat and I had the same reaction, I was like, “Oh.” And I got the feeling that she was like, “For God’s sakes, you’re driving. Get it together.” I should have pulled over. But she was just there. And then I had a weird thing in Colorado where I took the attic because I was like, “Ha, a bigger room.” And then you got up there and you’re like, “This is haunted by a million ghosts.” And you would hear things. I was in Boulder, Colorado.
Melissa McCarthy:
The feeling was so palpable that I would know which side. It was so strong. I never saw anything. But you would hear things. The only way to get in the kitchen door, you had to pull up the handle and hit it with your hip to get in. And we were sitting in the living room once and the door just flew open and there was no wind and it slammed against the door. And so just weird. Even a friend that stayed there with me, he’s like, “We are not alone in this room at all.”
Abby Wambach:
Did they scare you or do you feel, these experiences, did it make you feel safer?
Melissa McCarthy:
Especially with my great and my grandma, those were an incredibly calming feeling. And it was funny, I’ve actually never thought about it, but both times I was crying about them passing, I thought of it separately, and they just appeared in different ways. But it was the most calming thought of like, “It’s fine, I’m fine, it’s okay.” And then even in the weird house that we were renting in Boulder, I didn’t feel it was menacing. It was just so palpable that I was always like, “Well, I know somebody is here but I didn’t know anything about the history.” It was 100 year old house and we were the first non-family members to rent to have it. So I’m like, “I don’t know.” But I was sleeping in an attic with somebody every night.
Glennon Doyle:
So you’re not Catholic anymore but you believe that there’s more than we can see here.
Melissa McCarthy:
I do.
Glennon Doyle:
How would you describe your spirituality?
Melissa McCarthy:
I strongly, strongly believe that this is not it. In my head, I feel too much and I can’t comprehend a world where I won’t see my grandmother or my great-grandmother or… Oh God, I can’t even finish the sentence and start crying. The thought that it just ends. I just think there’s too much magic. Whatever it is you feel between people, there’s no way to quantify that that just ends one day. I just couldn’t bear it. My sister once said, we went out ironically for a beer and then she sat down, she’s like, “I’d like to talk about your salvation.” I was like, “Oh boy, okay. This is a big one.” But she was worried and I said, “I don’t think any of us have the same thought of whatever God is, whatever swirling cluster of magic.” I don’t know what it is. I don’t think it’s a person. Certainly, I don’t see it as a white dude with a great beard. But I do think something. I talk to God all the time, but it’s in my car or I’m just thinking about things. I said, “It’s not that I don’t believe in the magic at all, it’s just, I don’t think it has a specific address and I don’t think it can be connected to anything hateful.”
Melissa McCarthy:
So if you’re saying, “You’re wrong. You can’t do this. We don’t acknowledge that,” to me, I think of those really old cartoons where it’s like you get to the pearly gates. I think so many people that are really religious, I’m like, “You’re not going to get into that club. You’re going to have to do it over.” I do feel like they’re going to be like, “Boy, did you screw that up? Just go back and be nice. It’s so simple.” But I think maybe my sister thought I was an atheist, which I’m really not because I don’t know how that… There’s too much magic, I think, whatever that means.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s the theme of what you told your daughters about, just always finding someone that will lift them up. And the way that your mom lifted you up when you said the audacious I’m going to move, and the way that your spirituality is about lifting up, it’s a really beautiful…
Glennon Doyle:
Theme of life.
Amanda Doyle:
Theme of life. It’s really beautiful.
Melissa McCarthy:
It’s a constant fail and rejigger and try to do it better. Ben’s whole thing, there’s one thing, if everybody was just like is this the kindest, not being walked over but is the next thing I’m about to do, the kindest version that I can do or the kindest version of this moment that I can participate in. He’s like, “If everybody just followed that.” We think about it all the time. We’re like, “Can you imagine a world, even 24 hours where everybody stopped trying to one up or I’m going to get noticed for this terrible hate remark about someone.” I look forward to it being back in style where doing the right thing also seems interesting. That would be so cool instead of just being the biggest dirt bag gets you noticed. I’m like, “Oh god.”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, we’re about to wrap here, tragically for us. What’s hard for you right now?
Melissa McCarthy:
Raising two women in a country that I feel like women are under attack for… I feel like all of my gay friends and women and my God, when they’re both, they’re like, “I got it coming for me multiple ways.” Sometimes the girls ask me questions about just basic human rights and kindness and I am so overwhelmed that I don’t have a good answer for them. I can’t make it better. I can’t say this won’t happen, it won’t come to this, people just like to be loud. I’m like, we’re in it. I never thought I would just be fearful to be in this country. And I want to take it back and I just want to look at people and be like, “I’m here to tell you, no one’s trying to turn you. I can guarantee you, Mitch McConnell, no one wants you. I don’t want to force you to believe anything and you shouldn’t force me, just do no harm.”
Melissa McCarthy:
And everybody should just be able to play in the same sand lot. And it’s really hard, you guys know, with kids, it’s like they want an answer to something that seems insane. It seems like an insane scary movie that I don’t want to watch and we’re living in it. And I don’t have the words because the thoughts aren’t in my head of how to make it better or even justify it. That’s what scares me. And I believe there’s more good than menace, 100%, it’s just the hate is so much louder. I always think of it as a visual of you you’re at an intersection. There’s one person that’s just screaming, “You’re all going to die and I hate you,” it’s so aggressive and loud, and then there’s so many else on the other corner, it’s like, “You’re doing a great job, you’re great. You had a great day yesterday, you’ll have another one today.”
Melissa McCarthy:
There’s no way to do that with the same volume. So I’m always, “Is it physically being like, “You’re doing great”? I don’t know how to go up against that. It’s like one has a microphone and a huge amp, and then the nice guys talking into a milk bottle just like. And I know the good outweighs the bad. I try to always, when I feel scared, remember that. But it’s so quiet that I think we forget it’s there. So I try to remember that but it’s a scary place right now.
Glennon Doyle:
Can we please just have a skit where Melissa McCarthy’s screaming on the side of the road at people just, “You’re doing great.”
Melissa McCarthy:
I would do that all day long. I would just love it. I do yell things at people a bunch. I’m very weirdly vocal, but I think it’s probably off putting to people because I’m always like, “Oh, say it. If you think it, say it.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Melissa McCarthy:
So I do often roll down the window and I’m like, “I’m in love with that scarf.” And then if they do recognize me, it’s almost like, “What?” So I try to do that more and more because everybody’s yelling something. I love to throw a loud aggressive compliment. At first people are like, “What’s going on?” I’m like, “You look terrific.” I really encourage it. It’s the best and I feel better for doing it. I think it’s that wonderful ripple effect of, I’m so glad I did it and then I bet that person, within the hour is going to say something nice to that person and then it’s going to keep ping ponging. And I want that ripple effect more.
Abby Wambach:
So good.
Glennon Doyle:
All right, that’s our next hard thing, Pod squad. If we think something positive, we’re going to say something positive and that’s going to say.
Amanda Doyle:
See something, say something. It’s like a new twist.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a very new twist on it.
Abby Wambach:
See something, scream it.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay babe, I’m just going to go with say because I don’t want you doing that around the house. Melissa McCarthy, you are a God damn dream.
Melissa McCarthy:
Well, tell it to the mirrors, guys.
Abby Wambach:
You’re so awesome. And Bridesmaids is our family’s go to.
Glennon Doyle:
Although I would say the Starling is now close…
Abby Wambach:
Well, that was just the most special.
Glennon Doyle:
It just crushed us this week. Go see the Starling if you haven’t. Get it in your living room. Thank you for this hour.
Melissa McCarthy:
Thanks you guys. This been such a delight and I just love what you guys do. And I love that every day you’re just making that ripple effect better, and you’re making it easier to talk about everything instead of just holding in what weighs you down. It’s really impactful what you do and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you. We love you pod squad, we’ll see you next time. Bye.
Melissa McCarthy:
Bye guys.
Glennon Doyle:
I give you.