CARE-FRONTATIONS: Three Keys for Giving & Receiving Criticism
October 4, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Oh yeah, me. Okay. We’ve just been sitting here staring at each other. Hi.
Abby Wambach:
I’m going to sneeze.
Glennon Doyle:
I usually kick this off. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We are thrilled and delighted…
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
God bless you and keep you, and all the rest of you too.
Glennon Doyle:
… That you are here. Do you know that people say God bless you because in the olden days when people sneezed, they thought that evil spirits got into your body during the sneeze?
Abby Wambach:
Excuse me.
Glennon Doyle:
And so people would say, “God bless you,” to make sure that the evil spirits didn’t settle.
Abby Wambach:
It’s just such horse shit.
Amanda Doyle:
Really? I thought it was because your heart stopped when you sneezed. Which now that I just said that out loud, I’m embarrassed I said it, because that can’t be true.
Glennon Doyle:
Sometimes when I say things out loud, I do wonder if I should check them first. Because my dad used to tell me a lot of things that aren’t true just to embarrass me later.
Abby Wambach:
I knew it.
Glennon Doyle:
One time he told me that spam was called spam because it was used only in the Spanish-American War.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, like the meat?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And I did say that.
Amanda Doyle:
The spiced ham?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I didn’t know. I said that during a Jeopardy game during college and everyone was like, “You are an idiot.”
Glennon Doyle:
And I was like, “Oh no, that’s true. It was the Spanish-American War.” So anyway, what’s up? How’s everybody doing?
Abby Wambach:
I’m good. I’ve had a morning. You have thrown your back out a touch?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Pod Squad, Glennon has been laid up a little bit. And I’m good; I’m just running around. Sister, how are you?
Amanda Doyle:
I’m doing great. I’m excited about what we’re talking about today.
Glennon Doyle:
What are we talking about today?
Amanda Doyle:
We’re talking about criticism, feedback, what happens to us when we get it, what we might want to pay attention to, what we might want to throw directly away.
Glennon Doyle:
In terms of criticism, wonderful.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. And so we decided to talk about this because of a situation that happened this summer. So John, my husband, grew up going to this place in Connecticut in the summertime for a couple weeks. His parents are New England people, so they wanted to be closer to their families for a couple weeks. And it is this little coast town. There’s nothing fancy about it. In fact, the little beach looks directly across to a power plant. That’s the view, a giant-ass, smoking power plant, which my mother-in-law used to pray to in thankfulness for why they could afford their little cottage, and in thankfulness that it kept away anyone who was snobby or self-important.
Glennon Doyle:
Nice.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, cool.
Amanda Doyle:
The point is, it’s not like what people are looking for on postcards. But we love it, and so we spend some time there every summer. It’s like 500 houses, but probably like 200 families, because everybody’s aunt and grandparent and cousin is there. So it’s this little bitty town and we love it because it’s like 15 blocks, and so it feels like a place for the kids to have independence. They can just go on their bikes in the morning and they don’t come back till it’s time. And it feels like a good place to practice making mistakes so that they can make them on a smaller level instead of a bigger one.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Anyway, we’re up there and Bobby has this very close friend there, and I’m going to call him Charlie. They play all the time. I should back up and say Bobby was a kid who when he was four playing basketball at the park would try to get people to be thrown out of the game for double dribbling. He’s always been a very, just intense, “this is the way things should be done” type of boy, unless it’s something I tell him.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. He comes by this naturally. Do you remember when his father, John, busted into the kitchen the first time he met Tish because Tish was cheating at Chutes & Ladders?
Amanda Doyle:
The first time he met your family.
Glennon Doyle:
Tish was three. Yeah. Okay, and he called her out.
Glennon Doyle:
He called her out, came into the kitchen, told me that Tish was cheating.
Abby Wambach:
John is a fucking hero.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, so-
Abby Wambach:
Cheating is not okay, never okay, especially at three.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
The first time he met her, and she was three, and he came in just exasperated.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, first, she came in and was like, “John won’t play right.” And then he comes in and he’s like, “Tish won’t play right.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, we aren’t rule followers.
Amanda Doyle:
So anyway, yes, he’ll comes by this very naturally.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
I love it.
Amanda Doyle:
Bobby is now 10, right? He should be picking up on a few more social clues; so should have his 40-year-old father, but that’s fine. So he is playing with Charlie. He loves him, but he starts to be kind of mean, my son. If he thought something was a strike and Charlie wanted it to be a ball, he would perseverate on it and say it was. “Why would you say that? You’re wrong.” It started to make Charlie feel bad, like Bobby was being mean to him.
Glennon Doyle:
Unsafe.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. So this thing happened over the summer where the dad came to John and was like, “I need to talk to you about something. This is not going well with the boys. And Bobby is being mean to Charlie and we need to work it out.” And so John tells me, I write to the parents, we talk to Bobby, our family goes over and talks to his whole family, we come up with a plan, we come up with words that Charlie can use if Bobby’s slipping into it. And to me, it was just so wonderful. I felt so thankful to be given that because I feel like at home that wouldn’t have happened.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like at home it would’ve been like those parents would’ve said, “Don’t play with Bobby anymore, just ignore him,” or they would’ve said something to other people and, “Well, that kid, we don’t want him hanging out.” And so it just felt like such a great example of being able to deliver something with the believing in being able to invest in that it could be better. And I just received it as such an investment in us. I felt so grateful for it. And it really turned out really well, and I feel like we got closer for it. And so I just thought it would be interesting to talk about when it works and when it doesn’t work and how to do that.
Abby Wambach:
Can I ask a few follow-up questions? What do you think is the difference between the community that you spend a few weeks during the summer at and maybe your home community where, in your mind, it wouldn’t have worked? What do you think made it successful?
Amanda Doyle:
I think because we are all invested in that being able to be there for a long time? It’s a small place.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Amanda Doyle:
And so if you are deciding to write someone off, you’re writing them off for the next 10 years. It reminds me of our Dr. Becky, Good Inside situation. They came to us with this idea of, “We know that Bobby is good inside and he is just acting in this way that isn’t working, and we actually want this to work.”
Glennon Doyle:
First of all, the small town, big town is huge here.
Abby Wambach:
Huge. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because when you’re in a huge city…
Abby Wambach:
Forced living that… Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Guess what? In a small town, you don’t flick off somebody in your car because you’re going to run into them at the grocery store in an hour. In a big city, you’re like, “Whatever, I’m never going to see you again.” I mean, granted, it’s probably better not to flick anyone off.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, it’s like, “Next. Thank you, next.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, yeah. Everybody’s disposable. There’s no accountability.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Because in a small town, it’s not just that, “Oh, we want to be together and we don’t want to write anyone off,” it’s like, “No, no, no. If I don’t figure this out, it’s going to make my life harder too.” Because I’m going to have to avoid this person.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, we’re stuck.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s the stuckness that forces relationship; because you have to go through the hard stuff together so you don’t make your life in that small place a living hell. But what I’m interested in is, the way you’re saying it now is different than what you said the dad said to John.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, what did I say? Because now it’s been a long time, so what did I say?
Glennon Doyle:
So you said that he said, “Bobby’s being mean to my kid.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
But the way you’re saying it now made it sound a lot more open and, “We know Bobby’s a good kid.” It sounds like it was presented differently than just like, “Bobby’s being mean.”
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, that’s funny. So I have interpreted it differently in light of how it eventually went down than it was presented. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Ah.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, so that’s interesting because that’s the way I remembered it.
Abby Wambach:
There’s a progression here. This is good.
Amanda Doyle:
So yes, Bobby’s being mean to Charlie, and-
Abby Wambach:
And so how did John receive it, and how did John relay that information to you? Was John pissed? Was he defensive? Were you pissed? Were you defensive?
Amanda Doyle:
So he said thank you, and he was frustrated with Bobby, and I think he felt icky, but he was grateful. And then I felt icky just at the big pictureness of it. I was like, “Oh God, we’re being called out by somebody. And for being mean especially? That’s-“
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s very off brand for your family.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. Exactly. This is devastating to our case. But then I felt seriously so grateful. Because it’s so clear to me that this is something that, had it happened anywhere else, we wouldn’t have had this opportunity, this opportunity to hear it from people who genuinely like us, hear it from people who genuinely want Bobby and Charlie to be friends, and who are willing to make this investment. Because it was a risk. They didn’t know us well.
Glennon Doyle:
A total risk. And one of the reasons why you were probably open to hearing this or you weren’t immediately defensive too, is that you recognized some truth in what the people were saying.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve had both experiences, where somebody said something to me about my kid and I was like, “Uh-huh, I’ve seen that. That sounds right. That tracks.”
Amanda Doyle:
That checks out.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And then I’ve also had the experience where I was like, “No, that’s about something else.” Let’s just note that one of the elements here was what was being reported to you rang true to you about your kid.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re exactly right; it was not a shock to me. We suck at a lot of things as a family, for real we do, but we have really tried to be intentional about being open-eyed to all of our imperfections and challenges. And I’ve been like this a bunch in my life. When you’re holding relentlessly to this myth of perfection, when someone else gives you feedback, it feels like a threat to your identity and so you have to reject it. That’s fragility.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s parental fragility, “No, my kid’s perfect. I so badly want to be a good parent and have a good kid that I will not do what it takes to be a good parent with a good kid. I will not stay open to feedback.”
Glennon Doyle:
Because the way that we see our kids… I’ve read recently, the more you stare at something, the less you see it? So we have these stories about our kids and we filter out every single bit of evidence that doesn’t fit our story.
Amanda Doyle:
And it applies to us too.
Glennon Doyle:
It takes a village. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It applies to us too. I mean, the same exact thing, if I am desperately trying to be perfect and someone calls me out, that is devastating to me. Whereas if I know my flaws… I actually used to, when my friends would joke with me about like, “Oh, Doyle’s never going to text you back,” I used to feel like a sting and a hurt by that because I didn’t like being that. I didn’t being labeled as that. But then when I came to actually just understand that that is true about me, I received that kind of joking with me as actually feeling good because it feels like I am a person who’s known and loved, even if that’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, that’s sweet. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
But that took an acceptance by me to be like, “You’re exactly right. I am a person who is never going to text you back.”
Amanda Doyle:
And actually, in the science of this stuff, it’s really interesting, because I think we come by it really honestly, that initial kind of freak out when we get criticized, and neuroscience shows that our brains go out of their way to make sure that we always feel like we’re in the right even when we’re not. So when you receive criticism, your brain tries to protect you from it, and it receives that as a threat to your place in the order of things, how people perceive you. And so if you think about the hierarchy of needs, you would think that would fall into self-esteem, but it actually falls into the much more essential needs of a human, which is safety and belonging.
Glennon Doyle:
Sure.
Amanda Doyle:
So when someone tells you that, it hits to the core of you; that is the immediate ick you feel.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s important for people. Because it feels narcissistic to feel like, “Why am I so upset about this criticism? Because I have to be liked by everyone? Why do I have to be liked by everyone?” But actually, what’s happening is much deeper. What’s happening to you is not a desperate need to be liked necessarily, it’s a desperate need to be safe. So your very security in the order of things is being threatened, which is why it’s straight to fetal position.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. I recognize myself so much in that. Even more, I think this is fascinating because it’s one place, Glennon, where I think maybe we cannot trust ourselves. We’re always saying, “Trust your instincts, trust yourself, trust your knowing,” but actually what happens to our brains when we receive criticism is that, first of all, we’re shocked by it and we’re in opposition to it. So that’s what you just said of, “That is not correct. That’s wrong.” Second, we don’t even recall it accurately. We do not remember accurately what has been presented to us, and then we never forget it.
Glennon Doyle:
Is this why whenever we get in an argument with criticism, Abby, it’s like half the thing is like, “But you said this.” And you’re like, “I didn’t say that.” And I’m like, “But you said this.” It’s because we’re adding the story to what was said.
Abby Wambach:
The way that… Yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
We don’t even remember it right.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly, our brains don’t remember or retain our mistakes as a feature of our inner landscape. So when we get a criticism, it comes out of left field for us. So it’s shocking, A, and then, B, when you hear information that conflicts with your self image, your instinct is to change the information as opposed to changing yourself. So your brain is going to work really hard to manipulate what that information means. “That information really isn’t that. It’s really not about my thing, it’s really about this person’s thing.”
Amanda Doyle:
Our brains have totally separate wiring for when you receive something that you view as negative or bad than something that’s positive. So the circuits handle negative information way more thoroughly than positive information. Our brains are wired to do that. And so almost everyone remembers negative things more strongly and in more detail than positive things.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Of course.
Abby Wambach:
That totally rings true.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s like, “Oh my God,” every time 40,000 people can say something nice and one person says something negative, and that’s the only thing that sinks in.
Abby Wambach:
Definition wise, what do you all feel like is a criticism? Because I have an issue with the whole idea of criticism, even though I got a lot of it as an athlete for so many years. But when we were talking about this, we got into the conversation of, “Is it even necessary? Why are we so concerned with criticizing other people? Are we supposed to be doing that?”
Glennon Doyle:
Well, let’s go back then to Sister’s situation and talk it through, because that was a situation that was necessary. They’re parenting. There’s these two kids in their backyard. They’re seeing this dynamic and they’re like, “These kids need help with this dynamic,” right? So they go to John, John goes to you, then what happens next?
Amanda Doyle:
Then I immediately write to both of them and thank them for giving us the feedback and to tell them what we’ve already done, which was to talk to Bobby about it and two, separate conversations where we explained that his impact was not consistent with his intent and what all of that meant, and then actual things that he could say and do differently. And then I asked them if we could come over to their house. And our family came over and met with their family, and we talked openly about it.
Amanda Doyle:
Bobby apologized to Charlie for the way that he acted. And then we just talked about strategies. I said, “This isn’t going to be changed overnight. This is a habit, and I don’t expect it to, and so let’s think of some things that, if you’re comfortable, you can say to Bobby when he starts to do it. And then Bobby can know that if you’re over at this house and you start to act that way, you will be asked to leave. Because I’m asking those parents to ask you to leave when you do that. And if you’re at our house, you can expect.”
Glennon Doyle:
You will also be asked to leave.
Amanda Doyle:
You will also be asked to leave.
Abby Wambach:
How did Bobby receive all of this? Because I think that the way you approach criticism, there’s two parts. There’s the telling and then the receiving, and both are so crucial to having it be successful.
Glennon Doyle:
Sure, yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re right. Because I could have been defensive and I could have been like, “Oh, they’re so sensitive. What the hell? Kids are kids,” but I think truly that criticism has… It’s a weird word. So I think it’s about more whether you choose to invest in something or whether you don’t. Because super easily, in my head, when I heard that, I was like, “These people could have chosen not to trust us and not to invest in us. They could have told their kid not to hang out with our kid.” They really could have. It would’ve been awkward because it’s a small town, but 100% could have done it. And I think if you are choosing to invest in something, the way that that feedback works the best is when the person who receives it knows that the person giving it has the person’s best interests in mind and is invested in that person.
Amanda Doyle:
So when I got that, I knew, “Okay, their investment in us and these boys’ relationship is actually a huge best interest of me and my son.” Because if this kid is feeling like this, there’s probably a lot of kids who my son is friends with who he doesn’t want to make feel this way.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
And I don’t want him to wake up in five years and have no friends because we have failed to coach him out of something that isn’t working for him in his friendships.
Abby Wambach:
What an incredible opportunity for somebody to learn like this.
Glennon Doyle:
I do want to say one thing though for all the people who are listening who have not had this evolved of experiences with other families. I’m going to tell you a very quick story and I’m going to say it quickly, and it will not go further than this podcast, okay? When one of my children was younger, that child was a sensitive little being, okay? And there was a kid at this child’s school who was being mean to the kid. So let’s say I am the other parent in your scenario. I was Charlie’s parent, okay?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, okay, okay, okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Right, no.
Abby Wambach:
Glennon was Charlie’s parent.
Glennon Doyle:
There was a kid that was being awful to my kid, okay?
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
And it just kind of got reported to me in a few different ways and then it continued. And I was less evolved than I am now, okay?
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I want everyone to know, I was a teacher. I understand that all kids are good inside, okay? I understand this. But something happens to me when it’s my kid that I lose all of my intelligence, okay?
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
I just lose it.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
I have no sense in me, okay?
Abby Wambach:
What happened, honey?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, Abby-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s your brain’s wiring, your brain’s wiring.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and my kid is not safe. Right. I did let myself marinate in all the negative ways that no one would say is healthy, all the horrible things that, “This family’s awful. This family’s awful.” I did the opposite of what Charlie’s mom did, okay? And then I did march my child over to these people’s home, knocked on the door, the mother answered. And I’m just going to tell you that the conversation got so heated that this woman had to kick me off her front porch. She had to kick me off her F-ing property with my sensitive son, who I was trying to save from meanness and bullying, walked behind his mother so that we could mean bully another mother and a child. And I still, I’ve never told… I mean, besides Abby, I don’t think anybody knows that story.
Abby Wambach:
Chase does.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, Chase.
Abby Wambach:
Chase knows that story.
Amanda Doyle:
Which is why he hasn’t told you anything.
Glennon Doyle:
So anyway, I just want to give a shout out to things that happened when we were less evolved and also a shout out to that feeling of like, “I know all the things, but I also…” That ferocious, want to throw down…
Abby Wambach:
I want to throw down. Mama bear comes out.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
But that’s a difference. Like that, I think is important. Because what you just described, you weren’t looking to invest in that. If we take the what is positive and helpful feedback quiz that I just said about you have the person’s best interest in mind and you’re investing in it, and you bringing the thing to them is a form of investing in either that person, a project that you’re doing, the relationship, neither of those things were true.
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
You didn’t give one shit about that family, and you had no interest in investing.
Glennon Doyle:
Nope.
Amanda Doyle:
What you were looking for was justice and accountability.
Glennon Doyle:
Justice and accountability. Fists of fury. I wanted them to say, “We are wrong. You are right. We will have a town square in which we will-“
Amanda Doyle:
A truth and justice reconciliation.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, that’s right. I mean, truly, that must have been my end goal. It was accountability, justice, and punishment.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. Which is not the same as feedback. Feedback is very different. And so I think that’s actually a good point. If you’re looking for that, that’s awesome in some circumstances, go get it, but that is not what this is. So I think it’s helpful to ask yourself, “If I’m looking to give someone feedback, are those two things true?” And if not, maybe don’t give it to them. Because I think people, when they receive it, they know whether those two things are true.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
And if they’ve done work on themselves enough to, A, not be totally shocked, or, B, even if they are shocked, look at it as an opportunity and a trust in them that they’re going to handle it right, then I think it’s helpful.
Abby Wambach:
So this is like criticism in the form of parenting, and I know that it gets a little bit more dicey and interesting when we talk about relationships.
Glennon Doyle:
Like partnerships you mean?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Because I know for me, criticism and business, I can take criticism when it feels professional all day long. Yes. Okay, cool. But when it comes to my most important relationships, I go into a wicked shame spiral death trap. I don’t know what the fuck that’s about, but that’s the one thing that I’ve done the most work on in our marriage.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
What is the difference between the parenting criticisms, the professional-
Glennon Doyle:
Or community. Because Sister’s talking about community criticism.
Abby Wambach:
Right, community criticisms versus relational.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like anything. If you have a neighbor and you need to work something out with your neighbor, if there’s a teacher at school where you actually need to work something out, whatever it is in your life other than your most intimate relationships, I think that best interest and investment situation works.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
But yeah, so criticism and relationships, the way that they talk about it. First of all, the Gottman research that where this researching couple can see a married relationship and observe it for just a few minutes, and with a 90% accuracy rate, they can predict whether the couple will remain married or be divorced.
Abby Wambach:
So amazing.
Amanda Doyle:
And they have these four categories that are called the four horsemen, that if they observe any of these four things, that’s what predicts it, and one of them is criticism. And the way that they talk about criticism is that criticism goes to the heart of someone’s character. So it isn’t that I never call you out on things. It’s that when I do, I come to it with like, “This is what your behavior means about you as a person, as your character.” Whereas if you just have a complaint, that’s totally different.
Glennon Doyle:
And a complaint is an emotional bid. I have an emotional ask of you through this complaint. “I would like you to be home earlier because I really want us to be able to have dinner together. I want more time with you. I’m craving the connection.” Whereas criticism is, “You only think of yourself. You never prioritize our family. You’re all about you. Therefore, you’re always late.”
Glennon Doyle:
So it really has to do with similar to the community one. I’d like to give an example of, what you’re saying is, if we have a criticism, which maybe we’d call more of a care-frontation, with a community member, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, the tell-see. We introduced it.
Glennon Doyle:
Because criticism feels like you’re doing something that is wrong. When really, all of that’s subjective. A care-frontation is like we together are having this issue that I feel like we both want to work out. It could be you, it could be me, it could be the connection between us, but there’s this thing that I bet we both would want to figure out.
Glennon Doyle:
And then it’s assuming goodness. Okay, I think that that… When I think about the situation that I just told you about, there was no assumed goodness. I was like, “They are bad. They are bad.” And that was because of my thinking over time, when you perseverate on something, you perseverate on something, and then… So for me, it’s not just about saying the thing. You go to the teacher that you’re having a problem with and you’re like, “I know that you are working your ass off and that you are trying to meet the needs of all of these kids, and my kid just has this thing and I…” You actually have to believe it a bit.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because if you say it and they say the wrong thing and you actually are believing bad intentions, you switch over like that.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it’s what you said in Untamed about the cup of coffee: When you get bumped, whatever’s inside is going to spill out.
Amanda Doyle:
And so when you’re dealing with someone and it’s sensitive as a situation, as a care-frontation, you’re going to get bumped; so you got to be careful of what you have in your cup.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
And if what you have in your cup is actual disdain and contempt, even if you’re trying to say the right things, it’s going to come out. So all I’m flagging is for me, prior to the care-frontation, there actually has to be some thinking about the other person’s perspective. Because that’s not completely always natural to me. It actually has to be intentionally done to be able to bring compassion to the situation.
Amanda Doyle:
And that’s why I think, to be totally realistic, this actual magic… It’s not forcing every situation into this magic formula. It’s saying, “If you don’t have this magic formula of actually believing it’s in the other person’s best interest, believing that the other person is good, wanting to invest in your situation getting better together, then that’s awesome.” If you don’t have that, it’s just something else.
Amanda Doyle:
In that case, you’re doing a different thing. You’re going to try to procure change. You’re going to go to the principal instead of the teacher because you have a situation. You’re going to go to the parent and say, “There’s new boundaries now. My child can only play with your child if this other person isn’t present.” You’re doing a different thing. I feel like part of our problem is that we’re not actually honest about our intentions. And we bring something to someone and they don’t handle it the way we think they should handle it precisely because the ingredients of the formula weren’t there, so of course they’re not going to handle it well.
Glennon Doyle:
Nice. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So what we’re doing right now is we’re saying there are situations that are ripe for a care-frontation.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. And those situations are situations in which you have a problem with another human being, whatever that problem is. You have gotten to a place where you assume that that other person is good and doing their best and yet this problem persists. And you have decided that you trust yourself and this other person and this scenario enough. And you want something in the future.
Abby Wambach:
There’s a future. That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
You want something, and so you’re willing to invest the time, energy, ego displacement, all of the things that this care-frontation requires.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, you’re invested in it.
Amanda Doyle:
And you think the care-frontation is in the best interest of the other person too.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Ah, okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay, and not-
Amanda Doyle:
It isn’t just getting something for yourself. And those three things, I think that is a recipe for really good exchanges.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
If you’re on the receiving end of that, expect yourself to feel totally icky and shitty, expect yourself to need a minute to even entertain that this might be true, because your brain is not predisposed to receiving this kind of information, and then ask yourself these kinds of questions.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Amanda Doyle:
What would happen if this person hadn’t brought this to me? And possibly think of it as, how would it have been easier for this person to not bring this hard thing to me, and what would that have meant for me?
Amanda Doyle:
Because I think often we miss what a gift that is. Because the person doesn’t have to do that, they could handle it all on their own. And when they’re handling it all on their own, guess what? It’s not usually working out in your best interest.
Glennon Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
When they invite you into that process, it’s a trust. It is a building on the relationship. And so I think if you can kind of consider that this person hasn’t brought me a problem, this person has invited me into a better outcome for myself and my people.
Abby Wambach:
And the way the person brings a criticism or feedback, I think that that will show what their intentions are, right? If somebody comes in like you did, Glennon, that person knows immediately, “Oh, there’s no intention for a possible future relationship here.” So that’s going to be dealt with a different… And it’s going to feel different, you’re going to receive it different. And so I bet that this dad who showed up with John, I bet you he was kind and honest and truthful in a way that-
Glennon Doyle:
And not full of contempt. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, and I think that the way you deliver hard criticisms can show what your future intentions are.
Glennon Doyle:
So let’s talk about that. Because when you were talking about that, it made me think of Dr. Yaba Blay and how she told me once that if she’s offering feedback, that should be such a freaking gift because she only offers feedback to people that she cares about and that she trusts to take it in. Because otherwise, why would you waste your time?
Amanda Doyle:
Unless you’re looking for justice and accountability, which is a totally different thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Right? But if you are actually bringing something where you’re opening yourself up like that and you’re saying, “This hurt me,” then that is a risk that that deliverer is making too.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, they’re making themselves vulnerable.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re placing a trust in you. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Making themselves vulnerable. Okay, so we have the prerequisites for care-frontation. If we don’t have those things, then we’re not going into the care-frontation. But there’s not just the prerequisites, but there’s the language, the script, the what you actually say, in a care-frontation. So can we just talk about that for a minute? What kinds of things make it easier for the other person to feel the vulnerability instead of the accusation?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, there’s whole separate kind of scripts if this is like a business situation. There’s a tremendous data that even using just this sentence when you’re delivering business feedback saying, “I’m giving you this feedback because I have very high expectations and I know you can reach them,” just that, in a business setting, the data shows that your feedback is received exponentially better than if it’s given in another way. And when you…
Glennon Doyle:
Because that’s saying, “You’re good. You’re good at your job. The reason I’m coming to you is because you’re good at this, not because you’re bad at this,” right?
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s the difference in criticism. It’s like, “I know that you are so good that this thing feels out of character,” instead of, “this is part of your character.”
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. Which, by the way, goes exactly to the relationship issue. If those people had come to me and said, “Your child is mean,” that would’ve been very, very different than, “We have an issue in which we love these boys’ friendship and Bobby is being mean in this way, and how can we work on it?” So it’s exactly the same thing.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s exactly the same thing in relationships. Everything works out the same way. I could easily not bring my concerns about my relationship to my partner, and that would be less conflict. But when I bring my issues to my partner, it’s because I am invested in a better outcome, I want better for us, I believe that they’re good, and I believe that they can do better, and that we deserve better.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. So you start with, if you are actually assuming good intention, the other person’s good, and that the thing you’re bringing to them is out of character and not matched with their character, that’s what you’re going to start with. You’re going to start with some personal version of what you said about work.
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Amanda Doyle:
You’re going to be talking about the actual behavior, about how you feel when the actual behavior happens because of what you want. You are going to phrase it as an emotional bid, this, “I want a deeper relationship with you, I want this time with you because I love you, and so let’s deal with this behavior.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Instead of, “You’re selfish, and you don’t love this family, and that’s why you’re never spending time with me.”
Amanda Doyle:
Right. And I think that everything goes back to this idea that that family could have not brought that thing to us, and written Bobby off, and our relationship would have been over. Same thing with supervisors who just are like, “Ugh, it’s not worth it. I’m not investing in that person,” and will just weed them out in a couple years. And same with the relationships. Intimate relationships don’t die because of conflict. Actually, conflict has nothing to do with predicting whether relationships will last, you can be super high conflict and last, super low conflict and last, they die because of a lack of connection. And so the bringing the feedback to someone is a desire to connect on something to make it better. Whether you’re in a relationship, whether you’re in a community, whether you’re in a business situation.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I think that this is important for me because I’m kind of one of those people that I’ve brought more criticism and feedback to this marriage more than I’ve ever brought to any relationship in my life. And I think what I got wrong before is I just wanted people to be themselves. And through being themselves and it not matching with what my needs were and me not voicing those needs, that’s when the connection ended up falling apart and I wouldn’t be able to build a relationship. I actually believe this. Most people don’t like conflict. You, and you, Sister, you guys are conflict pro.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, I feel like conflict is connection.
Abby Wambach:
But I do think that there’s a way to get into the heart of what criticism really is. Because at the end of the day, I struggle with this, criticism feels like such a big word. Conflict feels like such a big word. I’m sweating right now just talking about it. And my point is, and I think this is important in relationships, who made the person who’s bringing the conflict judge and jury?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, this is so interesting to me too.
Abby Wambach:
Why does that person to be right in this scenario or whatever it is?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, exactly. Well, that is precisely why the stance at which you come to it is important.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s give an example.
Abby Wambach:
Okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Should we give an example?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So let me just explain to you why Abby just said that, because we went on a long walk yesterday and we were talking about criticism and relational stuff. Care-frontation in community? Got it. I really do. I understand what you’re saying and all of that makes sense, the intention, the script, all of it.
Glennon Doyle:
To me, the marital or relational romantic care-frontation is a little bit more complicated or deeper or something. Because the community care-frontation feels like it’s easy. It’s like this behavior that’s not working for us. But what we’ve discovered, lo, so many times, in our romantic relationship is that a lot of the criticism we have for each other really does come down to identity and who the other person is.
Glennon Doyle:
For example, I have a discomfort that wells up in me every time Abby’s bigness manifests in a social situation. So what I mean by that is Abby is really comfortable with being the center of attention.
Abby Wambach:
Or louder.
Glennon Doyle:
Louder, or being the one who’s talking the most, or reflecting attention to her. That makes me very uncomfortable, okay? Why? Well, we know from all of our other pods that I must have learned at a young age that the way we stay safe is we don’t draw too much attention, that it’s selfish, that it’s what makes us unsafe.
Glennon Doyle:
So sometimes when we’re in a social situation, my criticism of Abby would be, “Can you please give someone else a chance to talk? Can you please just not take up so much space? Can you please just not be so loud?” But actually… And PS, I did that for three years.
Abby Wambach:
That was a tough time.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay?
Amanda Doyle:
How’d that work out for you?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, not great.
Abby Wambach:
Tough times.
Glennon Doyle:
Not great. What I’m trying to say is, in a marriage, I actually do feel like family’s a Venn diagram and you do have to give everyone talk time and all the things. But basically what I’m saying is, “I have a problem and you’re the problem, and so you have to change.”
Abby Wambach:
It.
Glennon Doyle:
As opposed to saying, “I have a problem. Why do I feel those things?”
Glennon Doyle:
Marriage is such a mirror in a way that I’m not sure that every community situation is, where it’s like, wait, I could criticize you to death for the rest of your life about being the center of things and having this bigness or I could be like, “Glennon, why is it so important to you that you and Abby are small in situations? What is this bringing up in me?” Instead of being critical, I could be really curious, and then that curiosity and inward could heal me in some way. Does criticism… Is it an effort to not have to heal ourselves?
Abby Wambach:
I think in some ways. I think in some ways it is. And I also think in other ways, what I have told you and what my dreams are for my best self, for my best and highest self. And one of my insecurities is that I talk too much. I have a need for attention. It’s an insecurity of mine because I get my-
Amanda Doyle:
Because she’s been bothering you about it for three years.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ve worked hard on that, making it an insecurity for her.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, but I get my worthiness with attention, and that’s been something I’m trying to actually work on.
Amanda Doyle:
I know.
Abby Wambach:
So she’s breathing into a little bit of what I’m wanting to see as my best self. And I think this is an and/both situation where, you’re right, this is bringing up something inside of you that you’re thinking, “Maybe this is actually my problem.” So this is where I get a little bit confused with feedback and criticism, is like, who made the critic the judge here?
Glennon Doyle:
Criticism.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. She’s like, “What made you the person who decides who gets to talk and who has talk time?”
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I think that that is a great point because it isn’t just related to couples. I think that you’ve identified what is a prerequisite before you have any kind of care-frontation. I mean, what you are talking about right now reminds me exactly of what we talked about in episode 128, where we’re talking about untethered soul with the idea of instead of saying, “That thing is bothering me,” we ask ourselves, “What part of me is being bothered by this?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So we really, really need to do that in any situation before we make it somebody else’s problem.
Amanda Doyle:
In that situation with Charlie and Bobby, if it had been something where, okay, Bobby was just winning at the baseball games more and that was really upsetting to Charlie, and that was really upsetting to Charlie’s parents, they would have to ask what part of themselves is being bothered by this?
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
And that would’ve been ego, and that would not have been Bobby and our family’s problem.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Similarly, with what you’re saying, you have to ask yourself what part of yourself is bothered by this? And if you determine that that’s something that you need to work on internally and not bring to your partner, or if it’s something that you are struggling with so much that you have to present in a way that just says, “Listen, I know I have an issue with this. I am still trying to work out what part of it is mine to process through, and what part of it might be something that we need to work on together, and what part of it might be your issue.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
“But I just want to say, I know you can sense my anxiety around this. I feel it too. And I just want to call that out because I want to share what I’m going through with you. I don’t want you to receive my anxiety as a criticism of you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yes.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good. Because I think in the end, and we talked about this on our walk, I think in the end, as we grow older, I can see myself as an 80-year-old woman and still talking and enjoying and inserting as much energy and fun into life as I can, and Glennon being 80 also and looking over at me and just kind of shrugging her shoulders, going, “That’s who she is. That’s who she’s always been.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right. That’s what we want to get to.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what-
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. And we should talk to Melody Beattie about this when we have a conversation with her. It could also be codependency issue, the fact that you are uncomfortable with the way Abby’s being, and the fact that you believe that Abby is a reflection of you.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, totally.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
And you need to change that.
Glennon Doyle:
Totally.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
As opposed to being like, “That’s my wife.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
You might love it about her, you might think it’s annoying, I think it’s a little bit annoying, but that’s a different person than me.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And by the way…
Amanda Doyle:
That’s a different person.
Glennon Doyle:
And by the way, what I also want to say is it’s unbelievable, and maybe this will be relatable to anyone on the Pod Squad, because her doing that is what makes our family beautiful and fun.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like none of my kids would want it to change. Craig wouldn’t want it to change. It’s the beauty of our family, right? If it were up to me, what? Abby and I would just sit silently waiting for someone else to talk all the time, and it would be a nightmare.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re literally a killjoy.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m a killjoy.
Amanda Doyle:
You’re literally like a literal killjoy. I will kill it. I will edit it out to a palatable level.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. Because it’s this beautiful thing that’s like, wait. It’s just what we come back to again and again, that the thing that we are attracted to that we fall in love with each other about. That’s what I wanted, that beautiful bigness and exuberance and light and all of that. I chose it because I needed it and I need it for myself.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like what Dr. Becky said, instead of saying, “Why are you acting like that?” Instead of me trying to smush it in Abby, what I should be saying is, “How do I grow this in me?” In real life. I mean, everyone’s like, “Please, God, how would you talk more?” But I’m talking about in real life, not on the podcast.
Abby Wambach:
As long as I’m not stifling the kids in any way. That was an important criticism that you brought early on to our marriage. I was such a talker, and I’m better now, but I would interrupt our children.
Glennon Doyle:
Nobody talked for two years. Nobody else talked for two years except Abby.
Abby Wambach:
I would interrupt them and she eventually had to sit me down and say, “Listen, our dinner time is so important for our kids to tell us about themselves and their lives.” So there’s also really important beauty that can come out of that. And I think that the way that you approached it… I have some trauma around abandonment and so any criticism, no matter what it is, she has to come to me with, “Okay, I don’t want to leave you, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, and I need to talk to you about this really hard thing.”
Glennon Doyle:
I am not going to leave you.
Amanda Doyle:
Which is a perfect segue into our attachment episodes that we’re going to be doing, because all of that is about attachment styles. And so criticism fits perfectly in that. I can’t wait to continue the discussion there because what we need and demand and the way we react to being called out or called in has everything to do with attachment.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
So hold that thought, Abby, we’ll get there.
Abby Wambach:
That makes sense.
Amanda Doyle:
We’ll get there.
Amanda Doyle:
Good job.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so do we want to hear from our Pod Squadder of the week?
Amanda Doyle:
I sure do.
Glennon Doyle:
We haven’t had one for a while and I miss them.
Amanda Doyle:
I sure do.
Abby Wambach:
I miss the Pod Squad.
Susan:
Hi, my name is Susan. And as I finished the podcast, your daughter’s song started playing. And I was looking in the mirror, getting ready for bed, putting my breathing strip on my nose to help me breathe better while I sleep, and smiling at that, and I just began moving.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Susan:
I was once a dancer and I just began moving with my robe and looking at myself in the mirror with pride instead of criticism, and appreciation instead of shame. So I just had a beautiful moment of truly seeing myself for the beautiful self that I am, and no one there that I needed to please or get appreciated by, I was just there to appreciate my true self. So thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s just end with that. Let’s just all hope for one moment of pride instead of criticism and appreciation instead of shame. Thank you, Susan. Pod Squad, we love you. We’ve got no criticism for you. We think you’re F-ing perfect. See you next time.