HELP: How to Ask for the Help You Need
September 27, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Hello world.
Abby Wambach:
Hi.
Amanda Doyle:
Hello world.
Glennon Doyle:
Today on We Can Do Hard Things, we are talking about help.
Amanda Doyle:
Help.
Glennon Doyle:
Help. Sister tell us…
Abby Wambach:
Help me, Rhonda, help me Rhonda.
Glennon Doyle:
Help! I need somebody, help! Allison’s going to cut all of this.
Amanda Doyle:
I hope she doesn’t, because I’m trying to launch my career.
Glennon Doyle:
Tell us about Alice this week.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. So this thing happened this week that I was telling Glennon about yesterday, because it was an insight into myself that my daughter provided.
Glennon Doyle:
They do that. Don’t they? They’re little mirrors.
Amanda Doyle:
They do.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s really the most unfortunate part is that you’re like, “It’s right there in front of my face.” Like when I’m screaming at Bobby, “You need to learn regulate your emotion.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Totally, I used to do it with Tish. “Why is she so dramatic?”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. So Alice is currently in this camp that basically, I can only assume was started in the sixties and they just codified the camp manual and it’s just been the same ever since. So it’s like friendship bracelets and dodgeball and capture the flag and
Glennon Doyle:
Aww.
Amanda Doyle:
And more friendship bracelets.
Abby Wambach:
I want that camp.
Amanda Doyle:
So she is trying to work on this, it was very simple. She’s laying on my bed and she’s trying to put these two bracelets together. And this is not complicated. She just has to fold the two bracelets together so that they’re one.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
And she is trying and trying, and it’s very clear to me that this just one tiny fold with her hand will solve her problem. And so I’m like, “Could I just…I just want to, I’m just going to get in there and do it.” It’s impossible for me to watch her do this and just not be able to do it.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And she gives me the death stare of, “I double dare you to help me with this. You back off lady.” She wants none of it. And so I have to physically remove myself from the situation because I just can’t sit beside her and watch her struggle with this.
Amanda Doyle:
So I moved to a different chair and I’m just like, “Okay babe, you just, God’s speed with that.” And she, for 10 minutes, she’s working on this thing. And then after 10 minutes she goes, “Mom, I need help, but I don’t want help.”
Abby Wambach:
Oh my God.
Amanda Doyle:
And I was like, “Yes, yes. I understand that very well.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because that is just…
Glennon Doyle:
Yoda. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
A third of my entire life.
Glennon Doyle:
Really?
Amanda Doyle:
She wasn’t describing what she needed next. It was like she was grappling with this weird feeling…
Glennon Doyle:
Human condition. She’s like, “This human condition.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yes, yes. She was just still messing with it. And she just needed me to know that she was holding both things as true.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes!
Amanda Doyle:
That she understood, she in fact needed help. But she also understood that she didn’t want it. And I just thought we should talk about that.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because I felt very much like that described a lot of my life, where I’m in a situation where I intellectually understand that the help is necessary, but I am not comfortable with the asking or the receiving of it in that instance.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s interesting because when you told me this story. You told me it, like I was going to totally also relate and understand.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I’ve just solved all of our problems.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
This is the condition we live under.
Glennon Doyle:
And I was like, I don’t get it. I usually, when we discover diametrically opposed human truths, which we believe in right? Holding two things at once,
Amanda Doyle:
The paradox of humanity.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. I always agree. But this one in particular, I feel like I’m always asking for help. Right, that’s just me.
Amanda Doyle:
I also feel like you’re always asking for help.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like where your go-to would be to dig in and not want to ask for help. My go-to is to immediately ask for help, before even trying kind of.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, yes, the remote, the refrigerator and God help me with iPhone Maps. Oh God help me with, I can’t.
Glennon Doyle:
Maps are hard and phones and remotes, remotes.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, honey, I have sent you videos on how to do it.
Glennon Doyle:
And you sit with me over and over.
Abby Wambach:
I try to be patient.
Glennon Doyle:
Tutorials of the…
Abby Wambach:
And you…
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, wait, about how to use the remote?
Abby Wambach:
She cannot.
Glennon Doyle:
And the thing is that Abby does it over and over again. She sits me down and patiently talks me through the remote, but here’s the thing…
Amanda Doyle:
You’re not listening, are you?
Glennon Doyle:
No! Here’s what I need to tell you about that. Okay. I thought this through recently. So when you sit me down at the couch and you say, “Honey, let’s talk through this remote thing again.” I panic when people talk to me directly, mostly. When people speak to me directly, when they look me in the eye and try to tell me something, especially when they’re trying to help me or something. Outside, I look like I’m paying attention. Inside, I’m trying to look grateful and present, but I’m panicking. I’m panicking inside.
Glennon Doyle:
So when you sit me down and say, “I’m going to tell you about this remote again.” I am trying to appear to look as if I’m concentrating and understanding you, that’s all. But on the inside of myself, I am thinking, “Oh my God, this is the 50th time she’s told me this shit. You better look at attentive and grateful Doyle. Does this look at attentive and grateful? Smile. Look as if you are deeply processing new information.”
Glennon Doyle:
And then it’s over. And then she stops and then it’s over. It’s like, this is the problem with the map thing. When I ask for directions to someone on the street, this happened to me two weeks ago. I had to stop and ask this nice looking man how to get to the street that was not registering on my stupid ass phone map. And this dude gestures in a particular direction and says something about north.
Abby Wambach:
Oh God.
Amanda Doyle:
No, no, no. We’re not looking for north.
Glennon Doyle:
No. So I’m looking at him, and I’m grateful that he stopped to tell me the things, on the outside, right. But on the inside, I’m thinking, “What? Who the hell am I? Lewis and fucking Clark? Amelia Earhart or some shit?”
Amanda Doyle:
Do I look like an astrologer to you?
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly!
Amanda Doyle:
Say left or right buddy, left or right.
Glennon Doyle:
But I can’t say that because this is kind of him. So on the outside, I’m nodding and yes, yes-ing and uh huh-ing, and I’m trying to look like I’ve got this now. But no, I do not got this now. I’ve got it less than I did when I approached this cartographer man.
Abby Wambach:
I think probably the reason why he was using the words north and maybe south is because there’s the Pacific Ocean.
Glennon Doyle:
You know what, I don’t want to start with oceans, all right? Like oceans?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, but we live close to the ocean.
Glennon Doyle:
See, here she goes again. So now do I look grateful and like I’m processing information?
Abby Wambach:
And we are, there’s only one direction north can be from the context of the ocean and one direction south can be.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. I get that. You are also a cartographer.
Abby Wambach:
Okay, no you don’t. You’re not getting it.
Glennon Doyle:
What about on a Zoom meeting? You know me on Zoom meetings.
Abby Wambach:
Oh yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I am on a Zoom meeting about very important things, with a lot of very important people. And I never one time think my job on the Zoom meeting is to pay attention and listen to this new information. I think my job is to appear to be listening and paying close attention. So I’m looking at my own face and I’m thinking, “Yes, that looks like the face of someone who is calm, but concerned and serious, but kind.”
Amanda Doyle:
“Look how professional I look, I’m nailing this.”
Glennon Doyle:
“And who belongs here, but it’s also grateful to be here and is being so supportive with my face of all of the other zoom square faces.” And I look like I’m really taking in new information. But if you ask me at the end of this meeting, what the new information is, I would have absolutely no clue.
Amanda Doyle:
You’d be like, “Something about north.”
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway, that’s the point. I’m going to work on this. I’m just trying to get you to understand what’s happening in my body. I’m not, and I’m not at the “fix it” part. I’m just telling you, I am panicking on the inside. When you talk to me, what about you, sister?
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I mean, it’s gone in a vaguely different direction than I imagined, but I think what we’re dealing with here is maybe a more specific issue. A. I think on Zooms, you’re staring at your face and saying, “Is this the type of face of a person who is getting this?”
Glennon Doyle:
It’s being self-conscious.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. I think with the remotes and the directions, I think it’s, because I too, I can hear two directions, “Go up there, turn left, and then take the next right.” And then everything after that, I’m just pretending to look gracious because there’s zero chance I’m getting more than two things.
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s probably the same with the remote. I think you probably get the first one and a half steps and then you’re like, “Well, that’s it.” So maybe it’s an attention thing. I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, it’s a panic thing. What I like about you, and I think is different about us is, I think there’s a little bit of shame if you go deeper. There’s something shame involved. It’s like, “I should know how to do this thing.” When Abby hands me the phone and asks me to find something, because she’s driving. If I could explain to you how upsetting it is to me, I know she needs me to do it. I can’t do it. I cannot. I’m zooming in like, “Is this one of those screens where you do your fingers?” I’m pushing the little dots and it’s not, I mean, it’s funny, but it’s not funny for me in the moment. I get really upset.
Glennon Doyle:
And so my go-to is to just, “I can’t do it” and quit. But your go-to is to never quit, to never stop. So I just want to hear about your, because I’m working on, give yourself a second, just… I tell Abby sometimes, she’ll jump in to try to help me with something. I’m like, “it takes me a little bit longer than it does with you. If you want me to figure those types of things out, just give me a minute. I need to not be under immediate pressure.” And then I can give myself a minute between the panicking and the begging for help. I can try.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, I get that. And I think it is that deeper level because after Alice said that to me, I was thinking, “I feel the exact same way.” But it feels like it’s a specific type of asking for help. Because you and I, both Glennon, are incredibly efficient and resourceful in things like, we’ll walk into a grocery store and if we need tomatoes, we will not look for the tomatoes. We’ll go up to a person and say, “Can you please point me towards the tomatoes?” Because that just makes sense. Why am I going to spend five minutes looking when I can just ask you? So that kind of help easy breezy, love it.
Amanda Doyle:
Directions, happy to ask. But I think it’s the specific instance, like exactly where Alice was, that I’m particularly allergic to, which is people seeing me needing help before I have determined whether I need help, whether I’m going to ask for help, because there’s no agency in that moment. If I have recognized that I need help and I am having the agency to ask for the help, then that is a position where I am activated and I am directional. If I am struggling with something and someone notices that, emotionally, a job, no matter what it is, I am allergic to people seeing me struggling.
Glennon Doyle:
That is so true about you.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. So that’s what Alice’s thing was. I was witnessing her struggling before she had made the determination, whether she needed help or wanted help. And that is the apparently both of us, the sweet spot of ultimate vulnerability.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, yes. It’s about vulnerability. It’s about weakness, weakness, not in your perspective being a bad thing. I can’t… “Oh my God. They’re seeing me not be able to do this.” It’s about control.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m not in an active position of being like, “Okay, so I’ve done the analysis and I do in fact need help. And I’m accessing my resources. And it’s just the struggle area.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s control too.
Abby Wambach:
You said something…
Glennon Doyle:
It’s power.
Abby Wambach:
You said something earlier that really rang true. It’s becoming self-conscious to become aware of yourself. And then sister, what you’re saying is not being able to actually perform or complete or do whatever task is and it’s this intense vulnerability of shame or feeling not good enough or you don’t have enough agency.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I’m thinking about so many times, I’m actually remembering so many times where I feel like in real time, you are overwhelmed or exhausted or whatever it is, which it’s so interesting. Because for me in those moments, I really want someone to be like “What is needed?” But when I say to you, “You seem exhausted or what can I do?” You get mad.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
You actually get mad.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
And I see your body change. I see your face change. It’s like I’ve called you out. I’ve noticed something. That is causing you shame. And you reject.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. That is correct. It’s like you busting in, open the door on someone and they’re naked. And you’re like, “Get the hell out of here!” Which I never do, cause I have no problem being naked. So that’s not a good analogy. But if to the average person that was feels naked, feels vulnerable and ick, it’s like that versus coming out and being like, “I need you to bring me some clothes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. But here’s, my question.
Amanda Doyle:
Because that’s me telling you what I need instead of you noticing what I need.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. My head is exploding right now. That feels just so lonely to me too. Because I have, we have one kid who I feel like was like this for a really long time. This kid would come to us, sit down at the dinner table and say, I want you to know my person and I broke up. It was three months ago that we broke up and I went through some hard times. This person lived with us and was our child. Okay. I went through some hard times and it was ups and downs and I worked through it.
Amanda Doyle:
I’ve created a PowerPoint so that you understand what’s going on with it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And right now, it’s just no further questions. Everything’s fine. I’m on the other end. All as well. And then, we just had to, “Okay. All right.” But then I felt like, “Oh, this person thinks that life is something to figure out and control and get, before you present it to people.” But isn’t that really lonely? Because isn’t it that time when you’re naked in the bathroom or whatever, metaphorically, isn’t that when you most need people to sit with you? Before you figured it all out or is that just a way of being, that’s not universal?
Amanda Doyle:
It’s wild. Because when you said that, I remembered that in my divorce, that’s exactly what I did. That I… My three best friends, we had gone through, I mean, granted, it was fairly swift, but it was a couple months there of deep misery. And after the couple months was over, I called a summit to my house and I was like, “I’m going to need you all three of you to come to my house because I have something to tell you.” And they all came to my house and I delivered this news that, “Here’s what happened. I am getting a divorce. Here are the top level items you need to know about. And that is the story. I’ll be taking questions at the end.” It was…
Glennon Doyle:
No vulnerability.
Amanda Doyle:
And there was nothing through it. It was exactly like you said with your kid.
Glennon Doyle:
So it was nothing through it. What do you mean by nothing through it? It was not…
Amanda Doyle:
There was no contact about in the sorrow, in it. It was like, “I now have data to relay to you about the state of the union.”
Abby Wambach:
It’s like this deep need for a human being to need to have had overcome something in order to share it, the allergicness to true vulnerability.
Glennon Doyle:
The messy middle.
Abby Wambach:
But it’s interesting because you do take help. I think that Glennon, and you are more capable of it, which I think is interesting, because you married me who’s always scanning the world for people who need help.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. It’s like I need freaking captain America.
Amanda Doyle:
If you’re ever going to get a flat tire, if you’re ever going to be thirsty, if you’re ever going to need a haircut, just generally be around Abby. She’s going to do all of those things for you.
Abby Wambach:
But I’m like sister, I will not.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you still feel like you’re that way?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I actually used to not be this way. I never took help. I would just quit. So before I got sober, that’s how I was. I would try things and they wouldn’t work out and I would just quit them. Just be like, “Nope, that’s just not the thing.” And now since I have been sober, I have a relentlessness that I never knew lived inside of me that I just don’t ever quit.
Glennon Doyle:
But you do ask for help now.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I have kind of a blend a little bit, but I wouldn’t actually say, I ask for help.
Amanda Doyle:
She procures help.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that’s probably a little bit more of…
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. You’re so right. You don’t ask for help. You just arrange help.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Which is an active thing. That’s the difference. It’s like I am in control and know what I need. I’m going to get it. I truly think there is something about that middle place where you need it and you haven’t made a decision as to what you need or even identified that you are struggling. That is the place.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. So then here’s my question about that. If you never seek other resources, when you’re in your messy middle, then the only power, the only choices, the only options, the only resources you are ever, depending on is your own, what you already know.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s confusing about it. It’s like when I used to say, “Writing’s my therapy and I’m a writer. I write. I’m in therapy all the time. I’m always in therapy. I’m a writer.” And then you were like, “Okay. But the only thing about that is that there’s no therapist involved.”
Glennon Doyle:
So no, writing is not therapy. I guess what I’m saying is when you are at that beautiful place, which that breaking point, I think of that point as so luscious and fertile because you come to the end of your own power and then there’s like every other, you have these people in your life, you have people with different perspectives. You have friends, you have God or whatever your higher power is. You have all of these metaphorical angels who are right there. I picture it right on the edge of waiting for you to break, waiting for you to break, waiting for you to break. And then you break. You’re like, “I can’t do it. I need help.”
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like whether you do that outwardly or just inwardly, it’s rushed to you is how it feels to me. And I know that’s my weirdness, but I have felt that over my life, as opposed to the way you two are doing it, which feels like you’re in a conference room by yourself with a bunch of whiteboards in your own brain.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s correct. That is an accurate assessment.
Abby Wambach:
It’s like a killing…
Amanda Doyle:
We’re like, “Well the board is meeting to solve this problem, who’s present?” I am.
Abby Wambach:
Me. I, I second.
Glennon Doyle:
I second that motion.
Amanda Doyle:
Well it’s unanimous. This is what we’re doing.
Abby Wambach:
But it’s just all ego. I know that that’s what has helped me so much in my sobriety is the killing off of the ego, the ability to say that my life has become unmanageable.
Amanda Doyle:
Right. That’s the first step. But even that, I think that I am moving towards that. But even that, I have determined that my life is unmanageable. It is not, truly, I think that’s the difference.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
The board has met. The board has made an assessment and the board determines that its own life is unmanageable.
Amanda Doyle:
When you’re talking about, when I get mad, Glennon, you’re like, “I have determined that your life is unmanageable.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
And that is the place where it’s like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. That’s a little too close.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I hear that. I guess maybe if you came to me and said you, well, that’s what an intervention is right? I mean, many people have come to me over my life and said… You’re like, that is par for the course.
Amanda Doyle:
We believe your life is unmanageable.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So here’s a question. When are some times, do you know of any times, besides me coming to you in a work-related thing and saying, “This is unmanageable or whatever.” What are some times when you have felt someone has caught me in my messy middle and I am not ready for this? Are there times where someone’s just reaching out, but it feels like untenable to you because you have not decided yet? I’m just wondering what are those things that it’s touching?
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s touching that I don’t have a handle on it, that I could be doing better, that I’m not in control, that someone’s worried about me. Like to that…
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, just say more about that, because I’m like, “Someone’s worried about me.” You just said it with the most disdain I’ve ever… “Someone’s worried about me.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. Worry about yourself asshole.
Amanda Doyle:
Literally, if I’m moving a box and John is walking by and I can tell he’s like, “I could carry that box.” I’m like, “I got it. I got it.” And I’m carrying the box of this huge. If he was to come and just pick up the box, I’d be like, “Thank you.”
Amanda Doyle:
But if someone is watching me struggle either physically or emotionally and witnessing it. I can’t handle, I can’t handle. But I am thinking of when, I’m not impervious to this. I remember a time, I’m thinking about when I got caught, kind of called in on something in college, when Bonzo… I was stealing people’s food all the time. And there were notes all over my house, it was like, “Whoever’s stealing the food, please stop.” I was living with 12 girls and I’m a hundred percent sure everyone knew it was me. But no one, it was the elephant in the room, no one talking about it. And there were notes where in the pantry, “Please stop stealing everyone’s food.” Cause I was and stuff.
Amanda Doyle:
And she sat me down and was like, “Okay, so it’s you. Let’s just talk about it. We know it’s you, we have to stop this and what’s going on.” And I was actually very receptive to that, which is…
Glennon Doyle:
Really?
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So what was different about it? I mean, Lauren Bonzo was such badass. Imagine being that direct in college.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so she sits you down and says, “You have a problem. You’re stealing all of our food.” Which PS is a very embarrassing thing because I also have been caught stealing everyone’s food.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, it is humiliating.
Glennon Doyle:
So humiliating. So why do you think, in that moment, because that was someone calling you out mid-struggle. You did not go and say, “I have a problem. I have an eating disorder and I’m stealing everyone’s food.” Why is that? Why is that a thing?
Amanda Doyle:
I think, because I know that she loves me completely. I know that she respects me completely. It isn’t like, “Oh this poor thing.” You know? I think the…
Glennon Doyle:
There’s no pity involved.
Amanda Doyle:
… “Oh poor thing” situation, I’m severely allergic to. Knowing that she respects me knowing that it was just to me, it’s not like they called a house meeting and called me out. It was friend-to-friend. I would never question her faith in me and respect for me. It felt like two capable people, problem solving together as opposed to, “Oh, I pity you. You have a problem.”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So it’s a power, it’s a power dynamic thing too. It’s like someone coming to you as an equal, as a problem solver, as opposed to, I am above you seeing that you have a problem.
Glennon Doyle:
So when I come to you, which don’t worry, I haven’t done it for years, so I’m like, “She’s on her own.” How can I do that better? Because you do so much. And sometimes I feel like I’m worried or if there are ways that I can help or what am I, what am I doing that’s making you freeze up a statue that Bonzo did better? Seriously. Do you think that, I think that you are a workaholic. So when I say it, there’s like a fixing or pitying thing involved?
Amanda Doyle:
Well I think I probably am a workaholic. So I don’t think that’s a news flash probably. I mean, maybe. I’m getting better, but I, no, I think it’s because you’re so desperate to help me that you’re like, “Okay, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to hire this person to do this. We’re going to do this thing we’re going to do it.” And I’m like, “Oh my God, now it’s totally out of control.”
Abby Wambach:
Help and the conversation of power dynamics is really important. I bet if I were walking in your house and I saw you struggle and I just came over and I was like, “Hey, let me help you with that or whatever.” You’d be like, “Okay.” But there’s a thing about it, having a man needing to help you, a woman. I think there is this, because you will never accept, help from a dude.
Glennon Doyle:
Nope. There we go. We found my pride.
Abby Wambach:
And so…
Glennon Doyle:
God help me. If I’m on an airplane, planes are fricking nightmare because they’re so tall and they made these, they’re made against short people. So I have to…
Abby Wambach:
The overhead bin.
Amanda Doyle:
For Glennon, it’s the over overhead compartment.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s the over, overhead compartment. I get on a plane and I think of my first book’s title, “I’m a Carry-on Warrior.” I am a carry-on warrior. I can do this. I can do this.
Glennon Doyle:
So if I am putting that suitcase up in the carry-on bin and a man comes over and tries to help me…
Abby Wambach:
God help you.
Glennon Doyle:
I swear to God, I will turn this plane around. Okay. Yeah. If a woman helps me, I am her best friend for the rest of her life right? If a man says, “Sweetheart,” calls me, “Sweetheart,” I will kill him. If a woman says “Sweetheart,” best friend for life.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Power dynamic, right? Yes. There’s some kind of help power dynamic. It’s like some kind of help is the kind of help that helping’s all about.
Abby Wambach:
But it’s interesting because, even I would feel not allergic, but for me, I think I can do almost anything, like really.
Glennon Doyle:
You do.
Abby Wambach:
And that’s one of my strengths and also one of my biggest weaknesses. And so I will never take help from a dude, ever.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
And I mean, even when I would be playing against, we would have to play against boys in the national team to train and I would play so fucking hard. And if anyone fouled, one of my teammates, I would two foot tackle that fucker. Because I just did not want them to believe that we were weaker in any way. So I feel like this help conversation is about this deep, underlying feeling of weakness and the relationship between power and gender. We put on all these roles as women and men that then we’re just fighting our whole lives against.
Glennon Doyle:
So is it, we can only accept help from people who we sense believe that we are equals?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
We need to sense that the person is coming to us from a place of, what you said, two people who are equal solving a problem together.
Amanda Doyle:
And two people who have consensus over that “this is a problem,” that’s for me. I have to just from where I sit, be at the place where I’m like, “I have a problem before someone can come in and help me with the problem.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
It is that place of struggle when I have not decided I need help, where someone wants to intervene and help me. And that is a threat to me.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So what is something that you need help with? If you had to think of one thing that you need in, an area that you feel like you need help in? I can think of 12.
Abby Wambach:
That we both need?
Glennon Doyle:
No, that each of you. Pod squad, think about what, if you could have help in one area.
Abby Wambach:
You can think of 12 for yourself?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, I thought you were putting it on us. And I was starting to feel vulnerable.
Glennon Doyle:
No, no, no. I haven’t even thought about you.
Abby Wambach:
I was like, this is exactly what sister was just talking about.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, absolutely not. I’m not, no. What’s something that you could use some help in an area of your life?
Abby Wambach:
Wow. This is really hard for me.
Amanda Doyle:
I think I need help in my house. Because in just our daily functioning, because John travels so much, there’s this extra, I’m trying to do work and life, when that margin of what he does is gone while operating on such a thin margin of capacity that then it’s like, “Whoa, everything’s to shit.”
Amanda Doyle:
And so I think building in more margin in our life through some help so that it isn’t always, we’re always at a nine and a half so the tiniest little bump will take us to a 12. That would be helpful.
Glennon Doyle:
Cool. What about you?
Abby Wambach:
I’m trying to figure out why this is so embarrassing.
Glennon Doyle:
You feel embarrassed?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you want to stop this?
Abby Wambach:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
This is something that just kind of came to me, but parental figures that have life experience, that I feel like we are in a state of our life that I don’t have somebody else to go to for life advice. What should we do here? How do we plan for the next five or 10 years?
Glennon Doyle:
And how do we raise grownups and how do we be this phase of our lives? Yeah, we don’t have that. Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
No. The biggest questions I’m asking right now are like, “How do I be a better parent?” I don’t need tactile help. I can, I’m really good at doing stuff. But also I’m very good at outsourcing. If we don’t have something or I can’t figure something out, I will call somebody that knows better.
Glennon Doyle:
But wisdom. You’re…
Amanda Doyle:
Life wisdom.
Abby Wambach:
That’s really something that I need help with that.
Amanda Doyle:
You need a grandma.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
To be like, “Baby, baby. This is what you do.”
Abby Wambach:
Or also just, don’t worry about it. That is real, that’s real help to me is somebody who can take all of whatever worries I have and make them not so big.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel like I have that.
Abby Wambach:
You do?
Glennon Doyle:
When our youngest was little, we’d had this trip, we’d go to the beach. I had this big bag, like a tote bag, full of beach stuff. The mom beach bag. And Amma would always say…
Amanda Doyle:
That’s 1500 snacks and a shovel.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly, exactly. And she would always say, “Can I help you?” It was so sweet. “Can I help you carry the bag?” So she would put one of the handles on her shoulder, but she was like 13 inches shorter than me. So I’d be like, “This bitch is not helping at all.”
Amanda Doyle:
She just made my load heavier.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it’s just like worse because she’s pretending to help. But she’s all the way down there. I’m carrying it all still. But now I have to pretend that she’s carrying it.
Amanda Doyle:
Now I’m carrying her body as well as the bag.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. But this is so cheesy. But I think about this all the time, because I think everything is so heavy and I’m carrying all of this family, work, the world, all these things. And then I just think of whatever my idea of God is. I’m like the little Amma, pretending to carry it. But actually none of the weight is really on me. And there’s this higher power, which to me is this old lady with gray, curly hair. And I don’t know what her face looks like. She just has gray, curly hair and a flowy outfit on. And she’s really carrying the whole thing. I’m not carrying any of it. It’s none of it. I think I’m carrying it. I’m not carrying any of it. God’s looking at me like, “This bitch is complaining. She’s got no weight. She doesn’t even know it.”
Amanda Doyle:
That’s awesome. It’s like the footprints in the sand. They always say, “Jesus.” It’s like the new meme is the footprints in the sand. And the graphic is like, “This bitch thinks she’s scared.”
Glennon Doyle:
“Oh, I’m so stressed. This is so hard.” And God’s like, “I’ve got the whole bag. Just walk.”
Amanda Doyle:
I love that. I mean, I think a lot of it has to do too with being a burden, thinking that we’re a burden on someone. And so when I always started thinking about this and I read this, social psychologist, Heidi Grant wrote a book called “Reinforcements,” Harvard Business Review book. And it’s all about, it’s all the research on help. Why we don’t ask, why we should ask, what happens when we do all this stuff.
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like one of the reasons people don’t ask for help is that, we think that people don’t want to help us, that we are bothering them or burdening them or whatever. But actually the research shows that our perception is completely wrong about this. That people are twice as likely to want to help us as we perceive them to be. And also, what’s wild to me, is that people like us more when they’ve helped us.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. That makes sense to me.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I’m saying to our kid who comes down to the dinner table and was like, “It’s done, it’s all done.” I’m like, “Oh my God, we just missed all of the stuff that makes us closer.” You skipped over the entire part where we get to know each other better, where we build trust in each other, where we feel more deeply connected because you think this is some kind of a sufficiency contest.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like we were about to take a road trip together and you took a plane. We were getting packed up, the car packed up for this trip we were going to take, where we were going to see all these sites and we were going to talk and we were going to talk. And it was going to be annoying and take a long time, but it was going to be such a bonding experience. And you called us from the airport where you just landed, and were like, “Good news. I’m already here.” And I was like, “Okay, that’s efficient. But you’ve just, we’ve missed the whole trip together.”
Amanda Doyle:
You missed the whole ride.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what we’re doing here together to be in those really vulnerable places together and not have a clue. And then somehow get through it together because self-sufficiency is a connection blocker.
Amanda Doyle:
It is such an awesome point and such a powerful analogy of the ride and the flight. Even on the concrete little things, even letting your neighbor, order pizza for your family when you’re sick. The data shows that the helping someone else is one of the quickest, most effective ways that you feel better about yourself. And so asking and receiving help from people is the most effective ways to make them feel good. And it’s like that Maya Angelo quote of “People won’t remember what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
When you allow someone to help you, they feel good. And then they associate that good feeling with you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes because you feel powerful and you feel important and you feel necessary to that other person. It’s one thing to feel like someone’s impressive, like, “Oh wow, good job. Impressive.” But that’s different from feeling connected and needed.
Glennon Doyle:
When my kid sits down and says, “It’s done.” I’m like, “Oh, they didn’t need me at all. I’m not necessary at all here.” What’s the point?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. The necessary thing is beautiful. I was listening to a Ted Talk that this former kindergarten teacher Ms. Kim gave. It was all about what we have to learn from kids about asking for help. And she was talking about how, as a first-time teacher, she was just waiting for the moment when a kid, a kindergartner falls and they get hurt, they don’t start crying. They look up and scan for a person they can trust. And if they find them and lock eyes with them, then they start crying. They won’t cry until they have locked eyes with someone that they trust.
Amanda Doyle:
And she said, she kept seeing it happen with other teachers. And she was waiting for the moment where it happened for her and this little kid in her class, Sam, who was always so self-sufficient, he wouldn’t accept help in any way, and he fell down and he locked eyes with her and he burst out crying. And she was like, “I am valued and needed. And you have just proven that I’m trustworthy, to me, by allowing yourself to crumble in front of me.”
Glennon Doyle:
That’s it.
Abby Wambach:
I wonder if part of his consciousness, I’m just still on the power part of it, if he’s super efficient, he’s the go-getter in the class. He’s like, “I only trust the teacher here.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. All the other assholes…you’re not going to be able to…
Abby Wambach:
…That power differential. In a marriage, in a business partnership, with all of us. It’s like, how do we cut through here? How we, how do you and I, Glennon?
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, I would be so honored if, and I don’t know, you all witness a lot of my moments, I think of my middle parts, where I haven’t figured it at all out. But I would love to get a message from, and I feel like you do it now. A message from the middle is what we’re calling this here. That’s like, “I’m fucked.” Those moments where you’re just like, I haven’t figured it all out yet, I’m just feeling lost or I’m feeling unmanageable or I’m whatever.
Glennon Doyle:
Just those moments, a message from those moments, I think would be interesting. And I also will promise to not try to figure anything out, just to be here with you.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I wonder if something practical, because I think we all, at least speaking for myself, have to wait because it’s hard for everyone. Everyone’s struggling. Everyone… Work, family, everything. Everyone’s a mess. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
So we’re almost like making a judgment call that ours has reached a higher level than yours to ask for help. And since everyone’s drowning, it feels somehow cutting in line to say you need help.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah but that’s not it. It’s not it.
Amanda Doyle:
I know.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Okay. Because…
Amanda Doyle:
I know that’s not it. I’m just saying that’s how it feels.
Glennon Doyle:
Got it. Right. Yeah. Sorry.
Amanda Doyle:
And so I think a practical application of this might be in your friend groups, even in our work situation, which is a friend and work thing, to every week, you actually have to bring one thing you’re struggling with. Or you actually have to bring one thing that, if you were to get help on, it would be this thing, because it also goes to this other part of the research, which is this thing called the illusion of transparency, where we don’t notice people’s need as much as they think we do. It’s called the illusion of transparency the research shows.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s the tendency for people to overestimate the degree to which their personal mental state is known by others and a tendency for people to overstate how well they understand others’ personal mental state. So we are operating, this is universally true, we are operating in a world in which we think other people understand where we are. And they think they understand where we are and we are both wrong.
Amanda Doyle:
So this is where it comes from of that idea of why aren’t people helping me? They see I’m struggling and no they don’t. They literally don’t. We have to use our words because everyone thinks they know where someone else is and everyone thinks someone else knows where they are and no one does.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. All right. So then two things, then. We need to report accurately…
Abby Wambach:
From your own mouth.
Glennon Doyle:
From your own mouth, with someone, or even to self, might be good, even in writing.
Amanda Doyle:
Self first.
Glennon Doyle:
Report to self what you need or to another what you need.
Abby Wambach:
Not even what you need. Maybe you don’t know what you need, but what you’re struggling with.
Glennon Doyle:
Right and then
Abby Wambach:
That’s not happening.
Glennon Doyle:
And then believing if you share it with someone that it’s a gift, not a burden.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Because we’re not saying you go to your friend, who’s also dripping with children and say, “I need someone to cook me dinner five days a week.” You’re just saying, “I’m struggling.” And then that other person, you think shouldn’t bring it to your friend because your friend is also struggling. And then you’re just adding another burden to your friend, but actually your friend more than anything needs, somebody else to say, “I.” That’s why people love this podcast.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because we’re a fucking mess. We’re a cry for help.
Amanda Doyle:
Wink twice pod squad, if you really need help.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. I feel like generally the pod squad doesn’t feel like this is a burden when we talk about things like this. It feels like a gift because people feel less alone. And that lessens our struggle, just the knowing that we’re not alone.
Abby Wambach:
And it might give somebody the ability to help.
Abby Wambach:
Which could be something that’s really good for them in a life full of chaos and uncontrollables.
Amanda Doyle:
I also think there’s that, you know how they always say check on your strong friends? I think that also in this book that I read about this thing called the diffusion of responsibility, which is the more people that can help you, so the wider your network, your support system seems to be, the least likely it is that anyone will help you.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, this is the phenomenon of too many cooks, too many cooks in the kitchen. It’s the phenomenon of about how, when children are swimming, the more adults that are watching, the more likely, there’ll be an accident.
Abby Wambach:
More drowning.
Glennon Doyle:
Because if…
Amanda Doyle:
If everyone’s in charge, no one’s in charge.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. So if you’re somebody who appears to have a lot of people who could help you, it’s even more important that you ask for help because data shows that you are the least likely anyone is going to ever intervene on. You need to actually directly ask, which is odd, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
We’re talking about this whole interpersonal struggle with help, but then there’s this actual bucket, if you need practical help for your business, for whatever you’re doing, there are these three things that are the ways you will actually get help. So this isn’t like “I’m struggling and I need to get sober or I, my family’s falling apart or whatever.” Practical, three practical things. If you actually need tangible concrete help. One, I’m calling, “say no to the vague fave.”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Vague fave. Okay. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
So this is this idea of when someone writes you and they’re like, “Yeah, we should get coffee.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh God help me.
Amanda Doyle:
Or “I’d like to pick your brain.”
Glennon Doyle:
No!
Amanda Doyle:
Or “can we connect?” These are hard nos.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
They are bad for you. They don’t, people do not, they want to know what they’re being asked. And they want to you to be specific. And they are demotivated when they don’t understand the impact.
Amanda Doyle:
So you need to say, “I want to ask of you X. And if you do, it will result in Y.” Okay? That’s what you do.
Amanda Doyle:
Also, this is terrible news. Number two is you have to do it over the phone or in person.
Glennon Doyle:
What?
Amanda Doyle:
Because yes. You are 34 more times likely to get help if you ask over the phone or in person than you are, if you write an email. 34 times. It takes 200 emails to reach the same success rate as six in-person requests.
Abby Wambach:
You’re kidding me.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. But that’s a boundary thing. You can’t just call people, show up at their house.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, no, I’m talking about if you’re in a situation where you are having the grand opening of your business. You send out a mass email to everyone on your list. You have to do that to 200 people or you get on the phone and you say, “Hey, I know you’re busy. I’ve been working really hard on this. And it would mean so much to me if you would come to my grand opening. And I celebrate your no, as much as I celebrate your yes. I just want you to know that having you there would mean a lot to me.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s cool. I like to celebrate your no as much as your yes, we always do that.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes we always do that. You taught me that.
Glennon Doyle:
To tell women we will honor…
Amanda Doyle:
We always do that because it’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
We will honor your no, because that’s equally badass.
Amanda Doyle:
Don’t you think it goes with the whole idea of diffusion of responsibility? If you know you’re in a mass email list. You don’t think it is important that you are there. That’s right. You just think it’s important that some people are there and we think they’ve got it covered. “Look, they have this huge network. It actually doesn’t matter if about me.”
Glennon Doyle:
Totally.
Amanda Doyle:
But if someone says, “You matter, this is why you matter. Here’s what your impact will be on me.” Suddenly again, the greatest, quickest way for me to feel good about myself is to help someone. You mean I can help someone?
Glennon Doyle:
Right. What I just want to emphasize there is, I don’t think it’s about the phone call. I think it’s about the personalization. So whatever that means, because for example, if someone called me, I would be like, “This person doesn’t know who I am.” They don’t respect any of my boundaries. They know, they don’t care that I hate the phone. So I don’t think it’s about the phone. I think what that study is saying, what’s beneath, what’s underneath the thing is it’s the personalization, that’s tailored to that particular person.
Amanda Doyle:
That your particular help matters.
Abby Wambach:
You’re also a writer.
Glennon Doyle:
That particular person helps. Right.
Abby Wambach:
You’re also a writer. So yeah. You prefer to write things.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So personalization, say no to the vague fave, make it personal.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. And then also I feel like some people try to think that, if you do this for me, I’ll do this for you, that that’s an evening. That’s making it less of a burden.
Glennon Doyle:
Ew I hate that.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah the study showed that, when you make it in exchange. If you do this, I’d love to, I don’t know. What do people like to do? Take you to lunch. I’d love to, I will do it for you, whatever it is, that it actually diminishes, you making an offer connected to your request, diminishes the likelihood they will do it for you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Because again, people want to be able to feel effective and helpful. They don’t want whatever it is that you are willing to give in return.
Abby Wambach:
That’s interesting. So that’s, what quid pro quo?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It feels icky is the way, that the only way that I can describe that one, if somebody says, “I really need you to do this.” It feels like I could, my best self could step up to that. But if somebody says to me, “If you do this, I will post your whatever. If I do this, if you do this, I will.” It feels like my worst self is being invited forward. I’m trying to get something instead of give something.
Abby Wambach:
Well it’s a manipulation.
Glennon Doyle:
Which makes me feel not so good.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. It’s a manipulation.
Amanda Doyle:
And if you do need something, you would rather have it be like, I helped you. Now I know in the future, since we have a relationship, that’s now built on this, since I, now the data shows feel closer to you since I’ve helped you, I will then organically reach out to you if I need something because I feel closer to you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Not because I did this for you, I want you to do this for me. It’s just a relationship thing. So I think they’re all helpful things on help, but just this wasn’t in the research, but I just think anecdotally there’s also this boy who cried help phenomenon where I do feel like I have certain people in my life that if they say, “I need your help.” I will quite literally drop everything and be like, “This is a first class emergency. I will do anything right now.” And then I have some people in my life that say, “I need help.” I’m like give it 20 minutes.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yep.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s not going to be a thing. So I do feel in all this effort to ask for help, it’s concentrated family time. It’s vital for health and joy. But it should be used sparingly when you actually
Abby Wambach:
Need it.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I like the idea of God, because…
Amanda Doyle:
Why do you like the idea of God? Tell us again.
Glennon Doyle:
Because the reason I like the idea of God is because I don’t have to worry about that.
Abby Wambach:
About people?
Glennon Doyle:
I can say help 49,000 times a day and do. I am with Liz Gilbert about, she talked about on her episode about how every minute she’s just like, “I can’t do this. Can you do it? I can’t do this. Can you do it?” To God all day. Oh God. Yeah. “I can’t do this meeting. I can’t do this phone call. I can’t order pizza directly. Can you just do everything all day?” And then you just, you never run out of helps. So many helps.
Amanda Doyle:
God is forever helps. Maybe you should try that with remote Glennon, have you tried that? Asked God’s help with the remote?
Glennon Doyle:
God’s like, “Bitch, figure out that remote, for God’s sake, for myself’s sake.”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Love bugs. What’s going to be our next right thing here? I think that it would be cool for all pod squadders just to think about if…
Abby Wambach:
What they need help with?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What area of their life are they in the messy middle of? That they haven’t figured out what’s needed, but they just know that something is, help wise.
Abby Wambach:
Two parts, figure out what you need help with and maybe share it with one person.
Glennon Doyle:
Or maybe they could share it with us. They could call us.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Cause wouldn’t it be cool if we had categories? What if everybody says the exact same thing? I just do. I want to know what the pod squad feels in the messy middle of, what they need the most help with.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? So call us.
Abby Wambach:
747-200-5307. 747-200-5307.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Wouldn’t it be cool if everybody told us what they needed help with and then we could somehow make a whole help encyclopedia?
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. We love you pod squad. Thanks for helping us through this really freaking weird. Hard life.
Amanda Doyle:
We love you so much.
Abby Wambach:
We love you.
Glennon Doyle:
See you next time. Bye.