Are you a Feeler or a Thinker? Either Way, Genius!
September 1, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.
Abby Wambach:
We Can Do Hard Things.
Glennon Doyle:
Where our true intention is really just to make life a little less hard and try to figure out the mystery of ourselves and each other, just a smidge more. Let’s jump right back into our personalities convo.
Amanda Doyle:
The third grouping is Thinking and Feeling.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
At the risk of being Charlie Brown, “Thinkers step back and imply impersonal analysis to problem solve. They value logic, justice, fairness.” They are the correct people. They truth over tact. “They are motivated by desire for achievement and accomplishment.”
Amanda Doyle:
“The Feelers consider the effect of actions on others. They are people and situation-focused. They value empathy and harmony. It is as important to be tactful as it is to be truthful. Motivated by a desire to be appreciated.”
Glennon Doyle:
So let’s all say what we are. You will be shocked to know that Sister is a Thinker, correct?
Amanda Doyle:
Correct.
Glennon Doyle:
Abby and I both tested high on the Feelers.
Abby Wambach:
What. What.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, so what do you think about that? I think we weren’t surprised. Do you think that you’re probably higher on the Feeler than me or vice versa?
Abby Wambach:
Well, it’s interesting because being married to you there’s some logistical things that I’ve had to learn to put into my daily operations that force me into not necessarily being… I do think that I’m trending a little bit more towards becoming a Thinker in some ways.
Glennon Doyle:
By necessity?
Amanda Doyle:
Out of necessity.
Glennon Doyle:
Out of necessity, yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Under duress?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
But like I said earlier, I tend to instinctively have gut feelings. I feel a lot and I am thinking about the group feeling and what everyone will want a lot.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, right.
Abby Wambach:
So this is I think one of the things that I scored highest at, in difference to the other one. I think it’s really fascinating how you two operate being so different in this way and I want you to talk a little bit about that.
Glennon Doyle:
I do want to mark what you said. That’s another reason personality is malleable because in a couple, if one person is really far the other way, you have to take on the other side.
Abby Wambach:
Maybe, I mean-
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I think it happens with us. Whenever I stop being anxious, you start being anxious.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s like you feel like, “Oh, she’s not worrying then I guess I better worry.”
Abby Wambach:
So annoying.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah that’s called polarization.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I’m familiar, it’s a thing.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I think for this one, it’s one of those humbling ones because the Feeler has this very… People-focused, considering the effects on others, things that arguably are great qualities to have and the Thinker is none of those.
Amanda Doyle:
So I remember when I was living in Rwanda I had this Austrian roommate and she came home one day. We were living together for six months at the time and she came home one day and she said, “I’ve observed something about you. You are action-oriented, you are not people-oriented.”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Amanda Doyle:
I was like I guess for a roommate maybe that’s something that should be considered, this is my call to maybe be a better roommate? But I was like, “That’s correct, I definitely am that.” I am much more… I’m just more focused on the goals than the people.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so interesting.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So when you say that you are more of a task-oriented than people-oriented, is that something that has made you feel bad over time? Kind of like being an introvert has made me feel bad because I’m supposed to be people-oriented? How have you experienced that over time? Has it been a weakness that you’re trying to change or no? Especially as a woman.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because this shit is gendered, right?
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
So a man who’s task-oriented over people? Fine, great. You’re a hero, awesome champion. A woman who’s supposed to be nurturing, have you felt that to be gendered?
Amanda Doyle:
I think I just think of it as a predisposition. In a vacuum, if given two options, I’m going to gravitate towards the task. It feels very natural to me and I think in some ways then I have to look beyond that.
Amanda Doyle:
So to answer your question, it’s been so clear to me always that I think I just accepted it and I think I have a small group of people around me that I am oriented toward, but I am not a lot wider than that.
Amanda Doyle:
Sometimes I think looking below when you think about adaptive, where does that come from? Is my inclination to go towards the task because it is much easier for me to control outcomes with the task? I am very effective at it, I know how to do it, I can just put my head down and get it done.
Amanda Doyle:
Whereas when it comes to people, they are much more messy and complicated and unpredictable and it’s very hard to keep them on track. So I wonder if that has something to do with my adaptive need to control and need to be invulnerable and all of that. So it’s just interesting from that perspective, to be “It is true that this is where my natural predisposition is.” And then it’s just trying to go a level lower and say why is that the case?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Is that working all the time for me? Is that working? Is the satisfaction I get from accomplishing tasks, is that level of satisfaction satiating my actual joy?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Fulfillment? All of that.
Abby Wambach:
What’s interesting about you, Sister, I think that is this idea of you being this T, this Thinker, this task-oriented person, because I think you have this laser-like focus that it is for your people. Because all of the tasks that you’re doing is for people.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so true.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
So it’s kind of an interesting… You two have an incredible dynamic between Glennon, you being an F, and you being a T, Sister, on how you make business decisions. You have to talk about that?
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, I’m a strong F you’re a strong T. First of all, do we believe that’s true? In terms of being careful about the stories we tell ourselves. Do you believe that you’re a strong T? Do you think your way through decisions instead of feeling your way through decisions?
Amanda Doyle:
100% think I am, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. I am also willing to accept the strong F for now. Let’s take the Pod Squad through how we might make a decision together, because we do make probably every single decision, whether it’s a little thing, “What’s this caption going to be for our social media?” Or “What’s this huge next decision.” We make every single freaking decision together. Literally, “Should there be a one exclamation point on this or question mark?” That’s how much we think through every single thing we say to you.
Abby Wambach:
Lots of details.
Amanda Doyle:
We think and feel our way through every decision.
Glennon Doyle:
For 15 years. Okay. So say a big thing is presented to us. “Do you all want to do this big event?” or whatever. Then, how would you say that goes, between a Thinker and a Feeler? To make that decision together.
Amanda Doyle:
I would say that we both have our niche expertise and that I run through the risk benefit analysis and who are the partners, what the ROI is, vet the people, and all the things like this. And I will come to a conclusion about the advisability of it. What’s your analysis?
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, I would think, okay, I just have this one wild and precious life. If this thing were tomorrow… I always have to decide is it to if it were tomorrow. Because if I say, “Oh, this thing six months,” that’s some other version of me.
Glennon Doyle:
If this were tomorrow, would I feel a yes in my body about going, even though there was the no, because every yes is a no, right? So I’d be saying no to being home with the family to being… Is that yes bigger than this no, in my body. And I would seriously think about my little skull that I wear around my neck, on my necklace. I would think about death. I would think of the life as short. I would think all those things.
Glennon Doyle:
I can promise you the word ROI would not be part of my decision making. So then I would have a feeling, a gut feeling, that’s a yes or no and then we would get on a call-
Amanda Doyle:
And I would just interject that you are very in tune with the people involved. Both the people who are on the other side of the opportunity and your feelings towards them and whether it’s warm or whether it feels just right or whether it feels a 1% off with them. And then also in your family. There might be times where it’s a very good time for your children and they won’t miss a beat when you leave.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
There’s also times where you say it literally doesn’t matter how great that opportunity is, this moment is not a moment that I’m leaving so and so.
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Amanda Doyle:
Because my feeling is that it will not be good for them that I leave right now. So it’s end of discussion. So that high touch on the people, I would say also is heavily involved in your decision.
Abby Wambach:
Big time.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I think of it in terms of concentric circles. I’m in the middle, is this good for me and my spirit and my sobriety and my soul and my peace and whatever? And then my family is right there, kids and Abby and Craig, what’s going on with them? Then there’s the wider circle, which is our team. There are times when it’s like, no, it’s not good for us. They need me on the ground.
Glennon Doyle:
And then the wider thing is whoever I’m going to, that is important to me, less important to me than all the concentric circles. And by the time you get to me, I already know it’s probably a good partner because you know who I want to speak to and who I don’t. And then when we talk, how do you feel like that goes?
Amanda Doyle:
I feel like we would say, “This is what I’m thinking. This is what I’m feeling.” And I’d say both of us have veto power.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
So if you’re feeling awesome and great about it, but I’ve done my analysis and I’m like hard no, then it’s off the table. If I’m feeling super hot on it because of my analysis and it feels cold to you, it’s hard no.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
So I think that has worked well. And I think inherent in that is a very high level of respect for each other’s-
Glennon Doyle:
Process.
Amanda Doyle:
… Process. Because that makes a big difference. If anybody off the street walked in and said, “I just feel like it’s a no,” I’d be like, “Pound sand. I’m not listening to you.” But I think over time we have developed that trust with each other’s process to know that veto power is well founded. And I’ll say, I don’t think… We have never… Sometimes we’re both yes. Sometimes we’re both no. But there’s never been a situation where one of us has vetoed that later we’ve been like, “Damn, that was a missed opportunity.”
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s always turned right.
Glennon Doyle:
Yep.
Amanda Doyle:
In that kind of way.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s always, there was a reason for it. And I would say as a Feeler, one thing that I really appreciate, and if for all of those Thinkers who are partnered in business or family or friendship with Feelers, one thing that I always appreciate is when I come back and say, ‘No, it’s not right.” You never say “Why?”
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Because Feelers can’t really always give you a bunch of bullet points, but we do have a process. So your respect for my process and not making me verbalize all the reasons all the time. Because you probably could verbalize your reasons usually, right? Because you’ve thought-
Amanda Doyle:
Probably, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
There’d probably be a spreadsheet for it.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
But that might not make sense to a Feeler. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly.
Abby Wambach:
So I think that the mutual respect that you both have is the element to this process that makes it work so well.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really something.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. The next category is Judging or Perceiving. So this is J or P. Judging or Perceiving. And now real quick, Judging does not mean judgemental.
Amanda Doyle:
Okay. I mean it might because I’m a J.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, well I’m a J, too. I’m both. Okay. This is about working, planning, and decision making. How we make decisions and how we order our times and days and lives.
Amanda Doyle:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
“Judging people are people who lean towards structure and making firm decisions.”
Glennon Doyle:
“Perceiving people like to be more flexible and open,” with their time, their decisions, their day.
Glennon Doyle:
How did all of us end up?
Amanda Doyle:
I’m an off the charts J.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes. Off the charts J. Okay. I go back and forth between Judging and Perceiving. I’m always on the 50, 50%. And then what about you, babe?
Abby Wambach:
I’m P, Perceiving.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re P, Perceiving. Yes, of course you are. Of course, you are.
Glennon Doyle:
So this is a person that likes a to-do list, is the judging person. It’s somebody who wants structure in their time, in their day. They might make to do lists. They might make lists for how to make decisions, pros and cons.
Glennon Doyle:
This is one of those categories that makes me a little mistrustful of personality tests because to me, and this could just be me, but I just feel like there’s always a back and forth between wanting structure and wanting openness. It’s like when the kids were little, or now, and it’s the school year and every minute of your life is accounted for from minute everybody wakes up to the minute you go to bed, with school and practice and all the things. And you’re desperate for free time.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re desperate for summer. Come on, summer. Come on, summer, so I can be free from all this structure. And then you get to summer and it’s like a week into summer and then everyone’s just laying around being themselves with no time. And you’re like, “Please God, take me back to structure.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So it feels to me like my whole life is a wanting the thing that I don’t have. If I have structure, I want the freedom-
Abby Wambach:
in this way.
Glennon Doyle:
… Openness.
Abby Wambach:
Cool.
Glennon Doyle:
And then if I have the openness, I’m like, “I feel like an untethered, lost ship at sea and I want the anchor of structure.”
Amanda Doyle:
But that’s just the human condition.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
We want the thing until we want the thing so bad. That’s the thing that’s going to make us happy. We get the thing. And we’re like, “I want the other thing. That’s what’s going to make me happy.”
Amanda Doyle:
I agree with you on your analogy of the summer, because that works. But it’s also just, I don’t think limited to this category. I think it’s pretty much everything.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I think more than the other ones, especially this one for me… Because I love open space, I love being able to fill my day with whatever. But the peace I get from having structure liberates me to have real experiences with that open time. So getting a workout done and having a calendar and seeing things on my calendar makes me feel safe to be able to be free and open. So this is one category on the Myers-Briggs Test that the grass can be greener on the other side in some ways, but this is also one of the ones that I have figured out, that all of these tests I am trying in my life to get into… I’m trying to get to the middle.
Glennon Doyle:
Ah.
Abby Wambach:
I really am because I see positive attributes on all of them. I really do. I find that it is almost imperative for me to try to find more of a balance because this for me feels like this will balance out all the pieces of my life for some reason.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel that. I get it. This is how I feel about my work, my job. It’s like to what point do I prepare? The magic is somewhere between making it happen and then letting it happen. It’s like where the magic of an hour of a podcast. Magic of an hour on stage, when I go do a speaking event this week.
Glennon Doyle:
To me, it feels like prepare, prepare, prepare, and then show up and freaking let it all go and trust that the preparation is there. But when you prepare and stay rigid, you miss the magic of the moment.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So it’s an and both, all the time. But I don’t like no preparation. Something prepared, something let go. It’s like the annoying thing about life, how everything’s and both.
Amanda Doyle:
I see where you’re at. If we go back to our original ways we started the first podcast about, it’s a collection of thoughts. And if you have this dichotomy between Judging being “Work first, play later,” Perceiving being “Enjoy life now, work later.” If you’ve got judging being “Taking deadlines seriously,” perceiving being “View deadlines as elastic,” both of those can be somewhat of cages if you’re too far in the extreme.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
But as you gain more experience in your life and have more self-efficacy maybe you can know, when is it important to take this deadline seriously? And when can I actually push back a little bit? When is it important to work first in this moment and play later? And when in this moment does the fullness of my life require me to jump on this moment of joy and work later?
Amanda Doyle:
Because too much rigidity, it’s really like you are hiding behind these shields as if either one of those is going to keep you safe. “If I just enjoy life all the time, it’ll keep me safe from whatever regret I have.” “If I just work first all the time, it’ll keep me safe to make sure that I get where I want to go.”
Amanda Doyle:
The truth is, nothing is keeping you safe. So if you begin to really have the fullness of confidence in yourself to be able to judge every moment or perceive every moment for what it is and make a decision based on that moment and what it calls for, you probably are going to make the wisest decisions for yourself.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I love that. I feel like it comes back to me to the beginning of Introversion and Extroversion. For me, it’s location, it’s like where I am. When I’ve prepared enough for something, that’s my inner world. And then when I get to the podcast with you two or I get to a stage or I get to whatever, that’s when I have to force myself to be present in the outer world. And when I’m present in my outer world, I can no longer control and that’s very scary to me. In the inner world, I’m in charge of all of the things in there. That’s why social events, parties, being around other people, is different for me. It’s locationally different. I have to be in a different place. I have to be in the outer world where you’re there and you can say whatever the hell you want to and all of these things are happening. So it’s location. Does that make sense? It’s like-
Abby Wambach:
I get that. And I think that for you, too, this just happened this weekend. We were going to the Angels’ city game and you had to do some stuff for the soccer moms. And it was amazing. And I had to tell you, you can prepare all you want, but you also have to understand that you are magic when you show up and it’s not because of the preparation it’s because you are magic. The things that you think about and the things that you say, even off the cuff, that’s magic. That’s you showing up without any kind of preparation and just being open. And so the confidence to know that you’re magic and your openness and not just your structured self that’s, I think an important element.
Glennon Doyle:
You have that. You have that belief that you will be enough in the moment and that’s why you’re always so present. And I always get the feeling when we leave people or a professional event or anything, that people’s thoughts will be “God, Abby is so… ah.” You just make people feel so magic and loved and then they’ll be like, “Glennon really nailed it.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. But I know who I want to go to lunch with.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
You’re magic, too.
Glennon Doyle:
I love you.
Glennon Doyle:
All right. I’m very fascinated with this one and I understand the least about this last category, but-
Abby Wambach:
I think because it’s newer, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. It’s a newer one. It’s called Identity? And it’s the definition of it or the description is, “How confident we are in our abilities and our decisions.” And the two categories are Assertive or Turbulent.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think the Assertive people are maybe more confident in their abilities and decisions. They’re more self-assured, more even tempered. They’re more resistant to stress. They don’t worry too much. They aim for goals, they want successful results. They’re unlikely to spend a lot of time thinking about their past actions or choices. What’s done is done, for Assertive types.
Glennon Doyle:
Turbulent individuals are success-driven, perfectionists, eager to improve, always trying to counterbalance their self doubts by achieving more. They push themselves. Turbulent personality types tend to notice little problems and often do something about them before they come larger ones.
Glennon Doyle:
But overall, Assertive types are more confident in their abilities and decisions. And Turbulent people tend to be less confident in abilities and decisions.
Glennon Doyle:
Am I right in that I tested Turbulent-
Abby Wambach:
Yes, you did.
Glennon Doyle:
And you two both tested Assertive. Is that-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Correct?
Amanda Doyle:
I actually don’t know what I tested on this one. I think I did a test that didn’t have the A or the T, which is fascinating, because I’m listening to say this and the Turbulent describes me perfectly until you get to the point where you say it’s about not being confident. Because I think I have all of those perfectionist, always want to improve, noticing the little problems, but that describes me perfectly. But I wouldn’t say that I’m not confident. I feel like I’m confident because I do all that shit.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I’m curious. This is the first Myers-Briggs Test that we took that these were two-
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, it’s new.
Abby Wambach:
It was new, which I actually appreciated a lot and it made me feel like there was an update to the system.
Amanda Doyle:
You always love an update.
Abby Wambach:
Well, I’ve done this test a hundred times in my life, a hundred times. It’s not like the answers are different year over year. It’s like 10 years later, five years later, I change. Everything changes. So this has kind of been fun to read into a little bit.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t understand this category, first of all. So-
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, I don’t. But can someone tell us what this category means? Call us and tell us what it means.
Glennon Doyle:
I’ll tell you what I decided that it means. That I feel like I do have… First of all, I think turbulent is a good word, for me.
Amanda Doyle:
I would pick that word from a lineup for myself.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t want that to be true.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t want to be a Turbulent person. I want to be peaceful and steady and easy breezy. But in fact, I feel like the fruits of my life might be Turbulent and how I am on a daily basis. But what I liked about this category was that I felt like it was telling me that my way of being, which is I am constantly racked by self-doubt. Okay? And I feel like annoyed by it because I feel like it’s unset feminist of me and unevolved. And I don’t want to be that way, but I am. I’m very concerned that there’s something wrong with me. I always feel like there’s something defective, deep inside of me, that I’m trying and one day will fix or overcome. I don’t know what the hell that thing is. But everything I do, all day, is to try to… All of the self growth, all the blah, blah is to fix this thing that is just not quite right.
Glennon Doyle:
But I feel like what this category was telling me was that maybe there’s an okayness to even that way of being? That that’s just a way of being that I’ve always decided was neurotic. Maybe it’s just that way of being makes me a good Thinker and writer. And I don’t know what the hell it means. What do you think it means?
Amanda Doyle:
I’m interested in this because, for a couple of reasons, the addition of this to the test might bring it full circle to what we talked in the first podcast about really personalities being collection of thoughts. Because it is interesting if you think about the collection of thoughts, making you think a certain way, all the time. Like you being like, “There’s something wrong with me,” over and over again, which leads to any number of behaviors that you just referenced. It makes you think, “Well, is that so?”
Amanda Doyle:
What if I were to lay down this collection of thoughts? Let’s just pause it that is a possibility, I don’t know if it’s possible to lay down a collection of thoughts that ingrained, but were it to be let down, is there another whole set of energies and actions that you would be able to invite into your life by setting that down? And then B, if it is not the case that you can set that down, because that is just whether it’s because it’s adaptive or trauma-based or whatever, it’s just who you are.
Amanda Doyle:
Then it makes me think of Cheryl Strayed’s conversation in an earlier podcast where she’s talking about, “I’m never going to not hear this voice. And I am just going to invite it to the table and the way I realign it is I don’t give it as much of a voice. I say you’re just one of the many, many voices that are in our symphony that is me. And what I need to know about you is that you’re usually like 99% wrong.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
Because it made me think of Dynna on our team who is just exceptional in every part of her job. And we were all laughing, because we all did the tests and sent them to each other. And hers was she’s a turbulent architect because…
Amanda Doyle:
And just to back up, every one of these Myers Briggs, there’s obviously since the original four, there are 16 per mutations that you can get because each one of the four categories can either be a Turbulent or Assertive. So there’s 16 and then they name them all in the 16 personalities.
Amanda Doyle:
So hers is architect and for Turbulent Architects, many of their best efforts come from concerns about real or perceived shortcomings. This may push them to work harder and be more meticulous in an attempt to do better or make things better. These personalities are more thorough, not despite the fact that they worry, but because they do worry. And so she’s an INJT-T. That made me like, “Oh, that makes total sense because she’s amazingly meticulous.” But it also makes me sad because I’m like, what if you just trusted that you were amazing and meticulous? What if you didn’t need to worry? And that’s what I think about when I think about you. What if you didn’t have to think that there was something wrong with you? What would happen with that extra energy-?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I don’t know.
Amanda Doyle:
… Those extra thoughts.
Abby Wambach:
I have an idea because language is so important to you and the word turbulent, I think has kind of a negative feel to it.
Glennon Doyle:
Like a ocean that is out of control and is going to drown everybody?
Abby Wambach:
Right. But all of the attributes that you read are very positive. So you think, “Oh, maybe this has something to do with that feeling like something is wrong with me. I need to change something. So I’m always doing self-care trying to perfect. Trying to fix that one thing.” If maybe the language is a little bit different, maybe you are just a growth mindsetted person, where you’re always just trying to better yourself?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Well that’s funny because the Assertives are defined as growth mindset and Turbulent is not.
Abby Wambach:
Interesting.
Amanda Doyle:
So it’s interesting.
Amanda Doyle:
Do you think that last line that I read about Dynna, that she’s good not despite the fact she worries, but because of it. Do you think you are good, not despite the fact you think something’s wrong with you, but because of it?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, I think that’s correct.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It reminds me of something Liz Gilbert said recently, which was, “You’re afraid to stop being anxious because you think if you stop being anxious, you will lose control. But you never had control. All you ever had was anxiety.”
Glennon Doyle:
So it’s like, I’m scared to stop feeling like I’m not enough. I’m scared to stop worrying that everything’s going to fall apart, because I actually believe that my worrying is what’s keeping all this shit together.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
But that’s not the case-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
… At all. But I actually didn’t mean for this to turn into a therapy session. What I meant to say was that it made me feel like… First of all, one thing that I can do with this voice is just to voice it every once in a while, because I think it makes other people sometimes feel who have that voice feel less debilitated by it.
Abby Wambach:
Sure.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I can have that voice and then still show up and do this all shit the time. I just don’t know if it’s ever going to go away. I feel like this might be not optimistic or something, but I do feel like I’m somebody who has tried a lot of shit, who has done all the things, a lot of things and I still have this way of being.
Glennon Doyle:
So, what I did take from this was that maybe there’s a meaning behind it because I feel like… When you say you feel sad about Dynna’s worrying, maybe we all feel a little bit sad about everybody else’s thing because we’re bringing our own judgment to it.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel sad about yours, you’re Commander having to be in charge all the time, having to be whatever. But what this test has done for me is to stop feeling sad about that, because that’s actually just judging your personality by my personality.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like the Enneagram episode.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yeah. I think the whole point of it is we don’t have to change each other’s things. Maybe my worry that there’s something yearning inside of me for different isn’t something that ever needs to be changed.
Abby Wambach:
Maybe it’s just acceptance.
Glennon Doyle:
Maybe the longing inside of me for something different is what helps me be who I am in the world. And maybe Dynna’s fire inside is what is helping her be who she is in the world. And maybe you’re driven leadership is what’s helping our family and our company be who they are. And you’re like, “Abby’s commitment to joy is making all of this not suck for us, is being the music behind all the lyrics and being the energy behind all of it.”
Glennon Doyle:
So what I’m trying to say is not like, “What if one day I replace these things.” It’s like, “What if this is just who I am and that’s okay?”
Abby Wambach:
Acceptance.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s what Antonia Dodge and Joel Mark Witt do, Personality Hacker and they say that these personality tests for them are to give folks permission to be themselves. And then unconsciously give that permission to everyone else.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
They say, “We believe that when you give yourself permission to be yourself, you own all of the components to who you are, including your genius and that way you can give your gift, the gift of who you are to the world.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. That’s right. That’s what I was trying to say. Maybe my neuroticism is my genius.
Abby Wambach:
It is.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Let’s tell… One of the cool things about the test we took, which by the way you guys just so everyone knows, we don’t have any connection to this. We just found this shit. Okay? We’re not pushing it or sponsored by it.
Amanda Doyle:
We know how to use the Google, that’s on account of how we found all this.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? Okay. So these little categories we told you, the Introvert or Extrovert, the Intuitive or Sensory, the Judging or Perceiving, the Turbulent or Assertive, gives you a letter in each category and then that makes up your personality type.
Glennon Doyle:
So for example, mine is INFJ-T. I am Introverted. I am in Intuitive. I am Feeling, I am Judging. I am Turbulent. So the name for my particular personality is Advocate.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
They give you a word for what you are. INFJ-T is Advocate and then it gives you a bunch of paragraphs that describe your particular personality. I’m just going to throw out that my personality was one of the rarest, right? 6% of people. I read the things, I felt like some of these things really applied to me.
Glennon Doyle:
What did you all think? Because I think this is an interesting part where we can get the self-deception out of this. Did you all feel like this described me, and in what ways?
Amanda Doyle:
I thought it did. This was my favorite quote from your section. “People with this personality type enjoy the pleasure of their own company. They may seem quiet or reserved to the world at large. They absolutely light up around their close friends. They bring to their friendship mutual support and growth. Having fun together is wonderful, but for these personalities, it isn’t quite enough.”
Glennon Doyle:
Amen.
Amanda Doyle:
That reminds me so much of your “Fun is for children. Bring me something else.” “Advocates may end up with just a few true friendships rather than a wide circle of casual acquaintances.” That just-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s an example of one thing that this test can make you feel better because it’s like, “Oh, it’s not that I’m defective and that’s why I can’t have a million friends. This is just part of my personality that I might prefer to go very deep with a small circle than a wider one.”
Abby Wambach:
I also think just in terms of the word Advocate, I just don’t know if there’s anybody in the world that’s advocating more for other people than you. You’re always trying to include especially any person who is marginalized. I think that you are through and through an extraordinary advocate.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, love bug. Okay. Sister’s was Commander.
Abby Wambach:
What are her letters?
Glennon Doyle:
Her name is even in it. She’s Commander Amanda, Amanda, the Commander. And she is ENTJ-A. So can you tell us what those stand for, sissy?
Amanda Doyle:
Extroverted, Intuitive, Thinking, Judging, Assertive. So I guess I did take the assertive test.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you did. I felt like this really, to a T, described you. “At the negotiating table, be it in a corporate environment or buying a car, Commanders are dominant, relentless, unforgiving. This isn’t because they’re cold hearted or vicious. It’s more that Commander personalities genuinely enjoy the challenge, the battle of wits, the repartee that comes from this environment. And if the other side can’t keep up, that’s no reason for Commanders to fold on their own core tenet of ultimate victory.” If we’re in a negotiation and the other side is being human, breaking down, not quite as prepared, not quite… Sister won’t be like, “Oh, let’s like, slow down-“
Abby Wambach:
Take it easy.
Glennon Doyle:
… “Slow down and see how that person’s going.” Sister will be like, “Finish him!” It’s so fascinating. So Commanders… Well, and this is true. “If there’s anyone Commanders respect, it’s someone who’s able to stand up to them intellectually.” So say we’re at that table and the other person is bringing the same level of genius and attention and preparedness that sister is, so the battle is on. That sort of thing will make me have a nervous breakdown. That will make Sister be like, “That’s my new friend.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
The conflict, if it’s of a certain quality, that’s what Sister respects in the other person.
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Abby Wambach:
I would go bury myself in a hole.
Glennon Doyle:
Right? Exactly. What do you think-
Amanda Doyle:
Well, you are very kind to take the work-based part of the test and highlight that because when I first took this test, I was at a very small dinner party with my dear friend V and she had us all take the test and then she began to read everyone’s results. And she was in mine and she got to the interpersonal relationship part of the Commander. And she looked up and looked at me in front of everyone and goes, “Oh my God, do you want me to keep reading?”
Amanda Doyle:
It was rough! It’s like someone being like, “This is what your insides look like. Would you like to show it to the dinner party?”
Glennon Doyle:
Oh.
Amanda Doyle:
And we did. So I’m just saying to me, it’s funny that you’re reading that and I take that as a compliment. To some people, people might be like, “She must be so embarrassed by that.” I’m like, “Thanks for the compliment.”
Glennon Doyle:
I knew you would.
Amanda Doyle:
But anyway, not all of that is that good.
Glennon Doyle:
One of the things that’s cool about this is, let’s say your partner, say John, is hearing that.
Amanda Doyle:
He did.
Glennon Doyle:
Like how you are in a relationship. Isn’t that helpful though? Because for me, sometimes when you’re in Commander mode, in that professional setting with me, I can think, “I’m not doing this right so she feels like she has to…” I’m taking it personally. I think there’s something wrong with how I’m doing it. So you feel like you’re needing to whatever. So when I read this stuff and I’m like, “No, that’s just my sister.” This is just her badass self. It has nothing to do with my defect, my whatever. It helps take things less personally and respect and accept. Respect and accept, I think.
Abby Wambach:
You’re not defective.
Glennon Doyle:
And my baby, Abby Wambach, is-
Abby Wambach:
An ESFP-A.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. So you’re an Extrovert-
Abby Wambach:
Extrovert.
Amanda Doyle:
Sensing.
Abby Wambach:
Feeling, Perceiving
Glennon Doyle:
And Assertive.
Abby Wambach:
And Assertive. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Tight. And everyone, the whole Pod Squad will be shocked to know that Abby’s particular personality is called?
Abby Wambach:
I’m the Entertainer.
Glennon Doyle:
She’s the Entertainer. Can I just read a little bit about our Abby? Okay.
Amanda Doyle:
Do it.
Glennon Doyle:
“Entertainers get caught up in the excitement of the moment. They want everyone else to feel that way, too. No other personality type is as generous with their time and energy as entertainers.” That is so true. When it comes to encouraging others. And “No other personality type does it with such irresistible style.” You are irresistible.
Amanda Doyle:
Oh my gosh, you are and your style is chef’s kiss.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. “Entertainers are welcome wherever there’s a need for laughter, playfulness, and a volunteer to try something new and fun. There’s no greater joy for an Entertainer than to bring everyone else along for the ride.” This made me laugh. “Entertainers can chat for hours sometimes about anything but the topic they meant to talk about.” How do you feel about your label?
Abby Wambach:
It’s true.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s true.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I think it’s true. I think I’m always and have forever been somebody that’s been looking for joy and nothing does make me happier than seeing other people experience joy and maybe having some sense of closeness to it. Either helping them create it or being next to somebody.
Abby Wambach:
Like surfing with other people who’ve just figured out, even though they’re not necessarily great surfers, they’ve just stood up on their first wave and they’re in the water and they come out of the water and they look back? Like heart explodes, like Care Bear rainbows are just going out.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Yes, you are. Yes. In our family’s life it’s just, Abby’s like carbonation. It’s like-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m like the still water, Abby just brings the carbonation. We recently had it… And my mom was here for a few days and Abby wasn’t here and it was like all the carbonation was gone. I didn’t know how to make things magic for my mom. I just was sitting there, like “What now?” It’s just the difference between fizzy water and still water.
Glennon Doyle:
Here’s one of the things I think is cool about these things, is that yours said that Entertainers are very sensitive. Okay? “Strongly emotional, very vulnerable to criticism. They can feel like they’ve been backed into a corner, sometimes reacting badly. This is probably Entertainer’s greatest weakness because it makes it so hard to address any other weakness brought to life.”
Glennon Doyle:
I thought that helped me so much because, especially in the beginning of our relationship, when we would try to communicate about something, I would bring up something and you would get so upset about even-
Abby Wambach:
Shut down.
Glennon Doyle:
Shut down.
Abby Wambach:
Just power down!
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Abby Wambach:
Power down.
Glennon Doyle:
And so then it was hard to ever discuss the actual issue because we were always dealing with your shame about the issue.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Which I was constantly like, “Am I doing this wrong? Am I bringing this up wrong?” Which, by the way, I probably was. But it did help me to read that.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because of, “Oh, it’s not personal.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s actually a personality trait that if you love that person, then you work with it.
Abby Wambach:
I’ve really worked on it though and you’ve helped because every time you come to me with any kind of issue, conflict… Not anymore, so much, because I feel more safe. But at first you would have to say, “Honey, I’m not going to leave you. I love you.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
“Everything’s going to be okay but I just need to talk to you about this thing.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And then it would settle me. I wouldn’t go into that. I don’t know something happens that I it’s… I almost like black out and I shut down and I immediately spin and spiral down into the worst case scenario. So then I can’t hear, it’s hard for me. It was hard for me to hear any personal criticisms.
Glennon Doyle:
So your worst case was abandonment.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So I would say, “I’m never going to leave you.” You would say to me, “There’s nothing wrong with you.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
“You’re not crazy. I just want to talk about this thing.”
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So what do you all think was your biggest takeaway from this test? And what else do we want to say that we have not said to our beloved Pod Squad about this situation?
Amanda Doyle:
I want to tell them that they can take this test 16personalities.com, that’s where we found it.
Glennon Doyle:
We have has no connection to 16 Personalities.
Amanda Doyle:
We have no connection. We do not lend any credibility to that but just if you want to know.
Abby Wambach:
I think one of the things that I just appreciate a lot is our whole team, not just the three of us, have taken this and learning about everybody is really important. And we are doing a lot of personal, the three of us, do a lot of talking about our personal lives, our personal selves. And to me, it was really helpful to get to know Allison and Dynna a little bit more deeply so that I can speak into their personalities. This is just information.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And I think the more information, the better and leave out some of the information that doesn’t serve you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I wonder if like every in IN.. One of my… INFJ, what am I?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
T is a Pod Squadder because it’s only 6% of the population, but half of our team. Audrey, me, and Allison.
Amanda Doyle:
Audrey and Allison.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, that’s so interesting.
Glennon Doyle:
Are all INFJ-Ts.
Glennon Doyle:
Anyway, we love you no matter what your freaking personality is. And if life gets hard this week, don’t you dare forget that you can do hard things.
Amanda Doyle:
If y’all would be willing to take two minutes and do one thing, it would really be wonderful. Following the pod is so important to us and it helps the show a lot.
Amanda Doyle:
It would mean a lot to us if you take a minute to follow We Can Do Hard Things, wherever you listen to podcasts. That’s how you know that you’ll never miss an episode or special announcements about events like the live ones we’ve been having.
Amanda Doyle:
So if you have an iPhone open the podcast app and it’s a purple thing, it looks like a microphone. You search We Can Do Hard Things and then tap on the show icon, which is the little picture of Glennon. Then tap the plus sign on the top right. After you hit that plus sign, that will follow you. That’s it, you’re done. If you don’t have an iPhone, you just do the same thing on Odyssey, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever you listen to podcasts, just search We Can Do Hard Things and click, follow or subscribe. Thank you so much.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you! Means a lot to us. Thank you. You keep showing up and so will we. We’ll see you next time.