Billie Jean King: Abby’s Hero Shares Her Hardest Battle
June 23, 2022
Amanda Doyle:
This is a first, and we can do our things land because it’s never before been admitted by Abby that she feels nervous.
Glennon Doyle:
Talk to us.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I just want her, number one, I want to be as gentle and loving to this person who deserves it. If I could be with her in the studio, I would have pillows and I would get her water. Billie Jean King is the icon of icons as it relates to not just women’s sports, but what I emulate myself after. This is the woman who has fought for a half century so that I could have the life that I have, and that I could have played on the stadiums and stages that I played on. That’s not lost on me, how meaningful she is to the world, and specifically to my life. I think about women’s soccer and I think about where we are now. The Federation of Spain just signed a deal with their men and women’s team that they’re now going to have equal pay. That’s because of the women’s national team, and that’s because of Billie Jean King.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Abby Wambach:
There is a very short line to the success of women’s sports, and every element of it comes from Billie Jean King, truly it does. She’s going to say all of the women that came before her and the people that helped her. Yeah, that’s great, but it’s Billie Jean King. She is the one that planted the flag in the ground and said we deserve better. She has made it her mission in life and gave me the platform to be able to say this is what I want to also do for my life in my retirement. She’s a baller. She is the baller.
Amanda Doyle:
To be able to be queer doing it. You got to do your dream and be who you were at the same time, which is a wildly beautiful thing.
Abby Wambach:
I know how hard it was for me at the early stages of my career to go back decades for the life that she was stepping into and how different the world was then. I mean, this woman is an icon. Y’all welcome back to, We Can Do Hard Things. My dream guest is with us today. Billie Jean King is here. She’s here with us today. Billie, I have to just say this first and foremost: you have very much changed the course of my life.
Billie Jean King:
Really?
Abby Wambach:
You have been the person I have always looked up to. This is the first and maybe only podcast I feel a little nervous doing, because of how much you have specifically directly affected my life and the lives of so many other women athletes and women everywhere, and men.
Amanda Doyle:
And men.
Abby Wambach:
I just want to thank you so much for what you’ve done for me and for women’s soccer and for all of women’s sports. You are the person who has been the bridge to help us get to where we are, and I’m going to cry a little bit because it means so much to me.
Billie Jean King:
You’re going to make me cry.
Abby Wambach:
You have changed our lives. You’ve changed our lives. I just thank you for being here and I’m … Maybe I won’t talk as much because I’m a little bit shell shocked, but thank you for being here.
Glennon Doyle:
You okay?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, oh my god.
Glennon Doyle:
Billie, this never happens.
Billie Jean King:
Thank you so much. Wow. I’ve got to go take that away and absorb it. Wow. I had no idea. I’ve always looked up to you and you’re such a great soccer player and you care about others and everything you’ve done out of those headers you used to make, oh my God. You’re so strong and you’re so quick and you care about things. Oh, geez. I’ve always admired you so much. I had no idea. Thank you.
Abby Wambach:
I can die happy now.
Glennon Doyle:
One of the 100 most important Americans of the 20th century by life magazine, and a 2009 recipient of the presidential medal of freedom, Billie Jean King is the founder of the Billie Jean King leadership initiative, founder of the Women’s Tennis Association and the Women’s Sports Foundation, and part of the ownership group of the Los Angeles Dodgers, Angel City FC, and the Philadelphia Freedoms. King also serves on the board of the women’s sports foundation. In her legendary tennis career, King captured 39 grand slam singles, doubles, and mixed doubles titles. I’m sorry. It’s so wild that I just I’ve never laughed when reading someone’s bio.
Billie Jean King:
That’s all right. Laugh. Have fun.
Abby Wambach:
Unbelievable.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s just so unbelievable, what you’ve done, including a record 20 Wimbledon championships.
Abby Wambach:
20.
Glennon Doyle:
Her historic win over Bobby Riggs in the 1973 battle of the sexes, is one of the greatest moments in sports history. In 2017, Fox Search Light released the critically acclaimed film, Battle of the Sexes, which depicts the groundbreaking match. Her memoir, All In, an autobiography, is available now. Billie Jean, Abby will tell you I spent a solid week doing nothing but reading your memoir from first page to last page, underlining. I had so many spiritual experiences reading your memoir.
Glennon Doyle:
Then I wrote out our whole interview and Abby said, “Should we also ask her about sports?,” so then we had to change it. Billie Jean, one of the things that struck me so much in the beginning of your memoir and your childhood, was that you have this saying, “you have to see it to be it.” When you were young, you wanted to be something that you couldn’t see, but you somehow instinctively knew you had to see it, so you imagined it. You tapped into the power of visualization as a young girl. You couldn’t see what you wanted to be in the world, so you just started dreaming it up. Can you talk to us about the power of visualization when we cannot see what we want to be?
Billie Jean King:
As a child, I had so many dreams, and I did. I could see it. I just dreamed. Once I got into tennis, which is my last sport, it drove me crazy, because we’re called amateurs and yet we’re the best players in the world. Of course, I grew up around pro sports. I’m thinking we got to be pro. We can’t be that. All these things are going through my brain, but I wanted to be number one. We didn’t have tennis on television. We didn’t have social media. I had books. That’s all I had. I would go get books, and I realized how little they gave to women. It was always about all the male champions and then there’d be a chapter on the women. That bothered me. I thought, “If I ever get a chance, I’m going to change that.”
Billie Jean King:
Once I started to get in there, being number one’s easy. I can picture winning Wimbledon. I would dream about it. I would keep the books in bed with me. I Always Wanted to be Somebody by Althea Gibson was there. She was number one in the world, first black player ever, male or female, to win a major. I really admired her because I knew her road to victory was much harder than it would ever be for a white girl. I just kept dreaming about getting that Wimbledon plate above my head, because in the old days you had to win Wimbledon to be number one in the world.
Abby Wambach:
What’s so interesting is that you didn’t stop at tennis. You, in your retirement from tennis, you helped other sports, specifically women’s national team. I actually got in touch with Julie Foudy this week, and I wanted to get specifics because you and Julie have been very close. I asked her, “How did Billie inspire you and the women’s national team to get better contracts?” She said, ‘Well, I got in touch with Billie in the mid nineties when we were having all these issues with US soccer, trying to get paid, trying to get wages, healthcare,” all of these things.
Abby Wambach:
You said this thing to her, “Well, imagine a blank slate, Julie. Imagine the most beautiful, truest vision of soccer,” and that stayed with her. What was so special to Julie that she wanted me to mention, is that you didn’t just offer advice and go away. You have stuck with Julie and with all of these other sports, helping women’s hockey, ensuring all of these things that keep echoing through the world. I just think that your impact, just has gone so far. Could you imagine the world that we’re in now, 50 years ago?
Billie Jean King:
The women’s sports world, or other worlds.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. The women’s sports world.
Billie Jean King:
I’m so antsy. We’re so slow. If you watch softball on ESPN, they get great ratings. Everybody says, “Oh, the softball is so great. It’s great ratings,” and it is. It’s for college, right? I go, “Yeah, but what bothers me and makes me itch, we don’t have a pro league anymore.” We’ve never had a proper pro league for them. As far as tennis, I learned a lot through tennis actually, because we actually did it. When you live it and get it done, it stays with you forever.
Billie Jean King:
The most important thing, and most people don’t understand this, is that it’s the original nine in 1970 is everything. That is the birth of women’s professional tennis. It was so difficult from 1968 when we got open tennis, which means professional finally, got paid pittance compared to the men right off the bat, so I’m going, “Oh God. Now we got to worry about that too.” Men own the tournaments. They run the associations, the governing bodies, all that. They started dropping tournaments, or if they kept them they gave us less and less money. It was getting horrible. My former husband, Larry, he said, “If you go pro, if tennis goes pro, the men will want everything.” I go, “Oh no, they’re my friends,” because we’d played together. He was absolutely correct. I was absolutely wrong. It was very tough times because these were guys I really like and had spent a lot of time with them, dancing, having dinners, practicing together. It was really, really hard.
Billie Jean King:
Finally, there were nine of us who signed a $1 contract with Gladys Hellman who was the publisher of World Tennis Magazine, and that is the birth of women’s professional tennis, September 23rd, 1970. I’ll never forget it. Anytime a woman in tennis, I don’t care what level of tournament, it could be at the beginning or it can be at the very top. Every time they get a check, the money is because of that day. That’s why it’s still relevant to me, because every time I see … Swiatek just won the French. I think she won $2.1 million. I know that day in 1970, is the reason she’s getting that money, and then we fought for equal money at the majors and we got it. What’s important about equality, financial equality, is it sends the right message, that we’re worth it, we deserve it.
Billie Jean King:
Also, if you think about women all over the world, and if they ever hear this information and then they go, “Wow, they get the same? Maybe I should start asking for, or maybe we should be entrepreneurial,” but it really makes a difference. Then men who care about us also will be feminist and fight for us just as much as the women. Another thing is that when women lead, they lead for everyone. For some reason, everybody thinks when we lead, it’s only for women. You never say that about a guy, “Oh, he’s leading for men. He’s really helping those guys out.” Would you ever hear that? Never. It’s really important that when we lead, that’s the reason we don’t have a woman president, is that when we lead, women, they keep thinking we’re only leading for women and only fighting for women. It gets me crazy.
Amanda Doyle:
What I think is so amazing of what you just described in terms of you planting the seeds for generations to come, is that it was never about you individually and your persona. You were always thinking so many steps ahead. You had this very unique gift of being able to imagine this blank slate with no barriers. You could imagine it, but you also had a gift of very strategically operating within the reality of all the barriers.
Billie Jean King:
Yeah. You do have to take in the reality, and sometimes it’s not fun.
Amanda Doyle:
You can do both at the same time. When you were asked, “Are you a feminist?,” by a journalist, you immediately knew that if you said, “Yes, I’m a feminist,” you would lose 75% of the people who you were starting to get to support your long term vision, so you said, “I am for the women’s movement.”
Billie Jean King:
Right. I had a nano … That was right before the King/Riggs match. I knew this. I would never get as big an audience again, the rest of my life. I had imagined what it would be like afterwards. I cannot tell you how much time I put in on that, because if I lost, all they’d say, “Oh, you know that lady over there? She lost to that old guy.” They won’t remember our names. That would be the rest of my life, because every single day, since that match, someone has brought the match up. Every single day. You can imagine how I knew how important it was, and title IX had just been passed the year before. I wanted that to stay strong and really start rocking, because I knew it was going to take a long time for it to go into effect.
Billie Jean King:
I didn’t want to go backwards there. I wanted women to believe in themselves. I want everybody to believe in themselves, but what came out of that match because it was about social change … It was about sports, but it was really more about social change, cultural change, a different dynamic in the way people started thinking. Women just, they gained so much self confidence. They’d come up to me. “I was giving up on life, but I saw that match and I said, ‘If she going to do that, I can do it.'” They said it changed her life forever. Then others have said, “I, for the first time, asked for a raise.” I’ve been waiting and waiting and I just didn’t have the guts or the courage to do it. They asked for a wage, and then I go, “Well more importantly, did you get it?” and they go, “Actually, we did.” or “Yes.”
Billie Jean King:
I’m like, “Ugh.” They’d waited 10 years, these people I was talking to. Then men come up to me, and sometimes they actually are crying and they go, “I never thought about things, but my daughter …” Now, it’s their granddaughters and everything. They go, “Wow. I really started thinking, ‘Of course I want her to have equal everything. Why wouldn’t I?,’ but you know what? I didn’t really think about it that much and I didn’t wake up, and I think very differently how I go through each day with my children now.”
Glennon Doyle:
I, for one, am always moved by how honestly you speak. As a woman who has had an abortion and does not regret it, I was deeply grateful for how you talked about your abortion in your memoir and in the world. You got pregnant at a time in which your marriage was shaky and you were beginning to see your professional dreams come true. You knew it was not the right time. Even when your abortion was made public in Ms. Magazine, without your knowledge or consent-
Billie Jean King:
Well that’s my … Larry did that.
Glennon Doyle:
That was Larry’s fault, right?
Billie Jean King:
Well, it was. I wasn’t happy.
Glennon Doyle:
Explain to us how that happened. Then you did say recently, ‘When I see hard one rights being re-argued and pulled back today, it makes me wonder if people remember how difficult things were before. We have such a short memory.” Your abortion occurred two years before Roe V. Wade. Tell us how difficult things were then, and why it’s so important to remember.
Billie Jean King:
I’m fortunate, because we had enough money. If you’re rich, you can always get an abortion. Nobody will ever hear about it. Everything’s fine. It’s really the people who have, are under resourced, that really suffer the most. People should know if we lose out on Roe versus Wade, we are going backwards because, particularly for women who are under resourced. It’s always about money when you usually get down to it. For me personally, I’ve been asking Larry for a divorce since 1969. And this was 19 what? 71.
Billie Jean King:
Yet, I still loved seeing him. Obviously, we made love because I got pregnant, and I was trying to figure out who I am. “Am I gay? Am I bisexual?” I didn’t know. When I got pregnant, I knew I should not have this baby. It’s not the right time, because to me, if you bring a child into the world, it’s the most important thing, the most, but it was terrible. First of all, I was outed and no one wants to come out unless on their own term. As far as having a child at that time in my life, I would not want to bring a baby into the world at that time. I do not regret it. I did the right thing for me at the time.
Amanda Doyle:
There seems to be this thread through all of your life and work, which is both thinking one and two and three generations forward, but also you talk about so much about the importance of knowing our history to understand ourselves and to help us get where we’re going. I don’t think in this moment, that many of us truly understand what it was like pre Roe. You were resourced. You were the most privileged, but you talk about how that was one of the most degrading experiences of your life, because you actually had to go in front of a hospital committee. Right? You had to get the sign off of your husband, and were in this point where we’re back sliding so much. Can you talk about the reality of what you had to go through?
Billie Jean King:
It was terrible. I remember when we walked in the room, Larry was right behind me. He goes, “This is absolutely ridiculous. You should not have to … nobody should have to go through this.” Who are they to make a decision for me? It was horrible and it was degrading. I thought to myself, “God, and I’m one of the lucky ones, because I’m not in a back alley having an abortion by a doctor or a person who does not know what they’re doing.” You can die from that. I don’t think that’s right. It’s her body. I don’t know what it is about people, but they think that women shouldn’t have control over their own bodies, period. They’re always talking about us. Have you ever noticed that? We never talk about guys and vasectomies and this. Have you heard anything about that yet?
Billie Jean King:
I haven’t. I’m like, “Well, why don’t we talk about that?” Guys, mostly, are the ones that get up there and tell us what we’re supposed to feel, what we’re supposed to think, and I’m like, “Stop.” No one knows what another human being is going through. Only the person does. I just cannot believe how they’re so judgemental. I’m thinking, “Judge not, that ye be judged.” They’re usually very religious, a lot of them. I was very religious at one time in my life. I get it, but don’t judge other human beings. You really don’t know what they’re going through. You just don’t.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you still have a faith practice or are you still in any organized religion?
Billie Jean King:
No, but I went through a lot and I was very much into religion, and I kept reading the Bible, always took the Bible with me and was very religious. I had a great minister. It was Reverend Bob Richards, who was the pole vault champion. He won two golds and bronze. He would get up and speak. You thought you could do anything after you’d hear him. From 11 to about 14 or 15, I thought I could do anything after I heard his sermons. I’d go watch him practice pole vault and hurdles and everything next to the church. I’d go to prayer group at high school and all that, but the more I read about it, I thought, “You know what? We’re really second class citizens, in religion, and I will not put up with that.”
Billie Jean King:
I mean, look at the Catholic church. Still won’t let women be a priest, so please. Give me a break. Yes, am I spiritual? Very much so. Everyone has to do whatever he or she or they need to do, and I always will honor that. I want to go back to that 1970, cause I didn’t tell you why we did what we did. There were three things we decided before we signed that $1 contract with the original nine. That is that any girl born on this world, if she’s good enough, would have a place to compete. Number two, that we’d be appreciated for our accomplishments, not only our looks. Howard Cosell only talked about my looks when I played Bobby Riggs. Can you imagine?
Glennon Doyle:
No.
Billie Jean King:
It’s pathetic. The number three, obviously to be able to make a living, because the nine of us had gone through amateur tennis, where we made $14 a day. We understood. When Julie Foudy comes to me for soccer, I get it. You want conditions to be different and you’ve got people watching you play, and you deserve to get paid. There’s no question.
Amanda Doyle:
You mentioned title IX. I think it’s fascinating. Today is the 50 year anniversary of title IX. When you talk about making a living, title IX was actually about education. When it was written, it had nothing to do with sports. This idea that you couldn’t discriminate on the basis of sex, in education-
Billie Jean King:
Classroom.
Amanda Doyle:
Right, in classrooms. Before title IX, only 3.8% of law schools were women, and now it’s 54%. Just in that short period of time, undergraduate and graduate classes had quotas, the maximum number of women per class that they would let in. They had particular subjects that women were allowed to study and not allowed to study.
Billie Jean King:
Right. This is the lawyer. You hear it? She talked about law school first. Go get them.
Amanda Doyle:
Women had to get higher grades to even get in. When we think about all of this, obviously you can’t have equal employment if you don’t have equal access to education.
Billie Jean King:
Right.
Amanda Doyle:
All of this is so connected. The education, the sports, the equal pay, it’s all part of this one ecosystem that we need to be fighting for.
Billie Jean King:
That’s true. It’s 37 words, so everybody can read it quickly. In there, there’s the word activity. I talked to Senator Birch Bayh, who was the one that got it through the Senate. It was Patsy Mink, who’s the mother of title IX, from Hawaii. Then there was Dr. Bernice Sandler, Congresswoman Edith Green from Oregon, who is known as Mrs. Education. These four people are my sheroes and hero because … and then Senator Birch Bayh was telling me, he goes, “Billie, we didn’t know what to do with the word activity. We had it in, and then we thought, ‘Well, let’s just take it out. We don’t need it.’ Then we thought, ‘Well, maybe we should just leave it as a catchall, because we’re probably going to forget something.'” Sure enough, cream puff.
Glennon Doyle:
Sure enough, cream puff.
Billie Jean King:
Everyone thinks it’s sports, because we’re so visible. That’s also why we have a platform that we can help change the world to be a better place. Thank you for leaving the word activity in, or we would not have scholarships to college for girls in sports. I’m pre-title XI, so I worked two jobs at Cal state LA and thought I was living so large because I had a job, right? Down the road a piece, Arthur Ash and Stan Smith, all three of us became number one. Eventually, they had full rides. They’d come back from the NCAAs. We weren’t in the NCAA yet. They just got all excited and I’d say, “That’s great.” Then I thought, “Are they ever going to ask me if we have anything?” Never. They never asked. It’s not interesting because the world revolves around them. I think it’s changed since then, but not a lot. 50 years has gone very fast and we have to worry and think about the future.
Billie Jean King:
The next 50 years, we want to make sure girls all have an opportunity, especially girls of color and people who have been left behind, transgender athletes, and athletes with disabilities. It’s about opportunities. It’s about being able to play. Let them play. Then we’ve got to figure out professional opportunities for women’s sports, because they can do a lot. You can’t believe, when you have pro teams, what they can do for the community, what they do for the players, how they inspire kids.
Billie Jean King:
The real sheroes and heroes are really local. If you think about your life, usually, think who you really looked at. For me, it was my mom, my dad, Bob Richards, Althea Gibson, just inspired me, or Clyde Walker, my first coach. Oh, I love that guy. I’m sure if you think about the teachers you had, I had about four that made a huge difference in my life. I’ll never forget them. One’s still alive, if you can believe it. Mr. Bambrick sixth grade.
Glennon Doyle:
Mrs. Yellen is mine, eighth grade. Hi, Mrs. Yellen.
Billie Jean King:
Really?
Glennon Doyle:
Oh yeah. I still see her. She still gives me advice.
Abby Wambach:
And cookies.
Billie Jean King:
That’s great.
Glennon Doyle:
She sends us cookies.
Billie Jean King:
That’s so cute.
Glennon Doyle:
She wants me to call her Tina, and I can’t. Mrs. Yellen.
Billie Jean King:
I understand that.
Glennon Doyle:
Can’t yet.
Billie Jean King:
I always call Mr. Bambrick Mr. Bambrick, not Richard.
Glennon Doyle:
No way.
Billie Jean King:
I know. I’m with you. I get it.
Glennon Doyle:
Speaking of people who inspire you, we, Abby and I, are so inspired by your love and your whole long, long love story. I used to be married to a man, who I adore, and we co-parent now, all three of us.
Billie Jean King:
Oh, that’s great.
Glennon Doyle:
I felt so seen when I read how you discussed your marriage with Larry, with such beautiful respect and love, but you also said back then, when you were trying to make that marriage work, you said “Sometimes my head and my heart felt like they were being squeezed in a vice.” You kept saying to yourself, “I can’t make this right. I can’t make this right.” That struck me, because when I was married to Craig, I used to have this loop like, “I can’t make this real. I can’t make this real.” Also, Billie Jean, when I read your description of your sexuality, I closed the book, called my sister, read it out loud to her, took screenshots, sent it to my sister.” I just want to read this out loud, real quick, because you talk about sexuality and the idea that when it comes to your sexuality, sometimes the sex is the least of it, so you say.
Billie Jean King:
Sometimes.
Glennon Doyle:
Sometimes. No, the sex is still the most of it also, but it also can be the least of it.
Billie Jean King:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Unlike now, there was very little talk about sexual orientation, being something nuanced that resides on a continuum and can change over the course of someone’s life. I was attracted to men, but I connect with women more on an emotional level, not just a physical one. I didn’t end up as a lesbian because of sex alone. It was a whole constellation of feelings that had to do with connectedness and tenderness. Sometimes the sex is the least of it. Can you talk to us? You talk to coming to terms with your sexuality as one of the hardest battles of your entire life.
Billie Jean King:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you talk to us about the reality of being you in that era that was so dangerously homophobic, and that living your truth really could mean the end of your career? What was that like?
Billie Jean King:
It was scary. I also had people on the tour telling me not to talk about it, or we’re not going to have a tour. A tour? That means everybody, right? That’s not just about me. I just couldn’t get a handle. I couldn’t get clear. I couldn’t get clarity. Did you have trouble getting clarity?
Glennon Doyle:
I felt pretty clear after I met Abby. I felt pretty damn clear, Billie-
Billie Jean King:
I was real clear when I met … When I started going with Ilana. It was no problem.
Glennon Doyle:
You said one of the hardest parts was realizing that you were 51 years old and tiptoeing around your parents, trying not to upset your dad or disappoint your mom because all your life you wanted to be a good girl.
Billie Jean King:
The good girl. Yeah. I always try to be the good girl. That’s who I am. Boring.
Glennon Doyle:
Boring. That’s what was unclear to me. How do I get … I’m clear, I want Abby. I’m clear, this is the realest thing I’ve ever experienced, but how do I let go of being a good girl so I can have this? How did you do that?
Billie Jean King:
By going to Renfrew. I had an eating disorder as well, which is pretty indicative something’s not quite right.
Glennon Doyle:
Same.
Billie Jean King:
I loved to binge eat. I don’t purge. When I went to Renfrew, I stayed there. It was in Philadelphia and I stayed there for what? Five to six weeks. You lived 24/7 with therapists and other people having eating disorders, which is … it’s a disorder of distortion. Just going through three times a week, individual therapy, couples therapy, family therapy. Oh, it was exhausting, but it finally just broke down those walls that I’d been trying to hold up for so long, to be the good girl and just say, “Who am I? What’s my authentic self?” That’s everything. Once you figure out who you are and be your authentic self life, gets so much better. You stop tip toeing, as you said.
Billie Jean King:
My parents had to come to terms. They came to Renfrew, after I pleaded and pleaded for them to come. We had therapy and they finally figured it out. Then my mother finally, finally said, “Oh, you’re so much happier with Ilana.” I’m like, “Yes, that’s it, mom.” She says, “I still don’t understand though.” I said, “I understand that you don’t understand. Your generation. I get it.” Even when she passed, she probably didn’t get it, but she knew I was all right. She knew I was happy and safe.
Glennon Doyle:
Billie, do you think that your eating disorder, because I have suffered from an eating disorder also my whole life … When I was reading your book, I was like, “Oh my God.” It just felt so … I mean the married to a man, the coming to terms with your sexuality, the eating disorder, the good girl parents thing. I just identified-
Abby Wambach:
The responsibility of the entire tennis world kind of feeling like it was on her shoulders.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, and then you saying, when you walked into Renfrew, knowing that was the moment of truth for you. You said, “If I crossed this threshold, this is my moment of truth.” How did you know? What was it about your eating disorder that made, you know if you dealt with that, you’d finally have to live your truth? How is the eating disorder tied to good girl, tied to sexuality?
Billie Jean King:
I’d been to therapist before I went to Renfrew. I finally said to my therapist, “Don’t you think I should go to an eating disorder place?” She said, “Yes, I think you should.” That’s a great therapist, because a great therapist gets the person there. They don’t tell. You get yourself there and then you tell yourself, “I should go.” To hear their okay, it always helps a little. I knew I needed to go. I needed to do something. My tennis career was over. I’ve been outed. This is what? 14 years later. I’m still trying to figure things out. When I went to Renfrew, it just … First of all, it makes you live 24/7, focusing on the task at hand. That is: “Who am I? Am I going to start living as an authentic self? Am I going to just stop this? Am I going to die before I figure, that I actually live it?”
Billie Jean King:
I just thought “I got to do this.” Also, it’s really important because, you know how uncomfortable we get? I know I have, and other people have talked to me about it, but it’s really important to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You can do it with alcohol. You can do it with drugs. You can do it with food that numbs us, just like the others. That’s my choice, to numb myself. What am I doing? I’m numbing my pain. It’s all about numbing our pain, isn’t it? I mean, I think it is. How do I get through this and start being myself?
Billie Jean King:
I’m going to live a much better life, and also a better life with Ilana. I mean, it’s not fair to my partner, my love, not to be the best I can be. A lot going on there, but boy, it worked. I still talk to my therapist that I had at Renfrew. I don’t have to go through my family history. She knows exactly where I’m at. I try to do that at least once a week. Thank you, psychotherapists out there. Thank you for saving my life.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel that. Me too.
Billie Jean King:
If they’re good, if they’re good.
Abby Wambach:
I think it’s important to just understand too, you did this work in the eighties, nineties two thousands. You had an actual impact on so many of us women athletes, who had a little bit of fear. I was never technically in the closet with my friends and family, but I really was in the closet with my companies that I was doing business with. You just doing this work and having the foresight or the understanding like, “I have to go and figure out myself first.” The pain of you doing that, laid a foundation for so many of us gay athletes to walk in a way that we felt less ashamed, we felt less internalized homophobia, that we felt more capable of actually being proud of our gayness. I think that I just want to acknowledge that your hard work paid off dividends, and is continuing to pay dividends to those future generations.
Billie Jean King:
Well, I noticed that more athletes are coming out now and that’s what makes me happy, that all I went through. Just think about the generations before me. That’s what I always thought. I always think, “How did they ever get through each day?” Even couples who are older, most of them have passed now, but let’s say they were in their eighties, if you go to dinner with them, they wouldn’t talk about it. They don’t. You know they’re living together and all that, but they wouldn’t talk about it. It was such a habit to measure. Oh, it’s exhausting.
Amanda Doyle:
Pride month, every company in the world has their pride authors and athletes, but when you were outed in ’81, you were close to retirement. You had built up all your endorsements. You wanted to retire and rest on those hard won laurels.
Billie Jean King:
Could finally make some money too. Finally.
Amanda Doyle:
Finally make some money, and in 24 hours you lost every single one of your endorsements.
Billie Jean King:
You’re right. All of them. The names they’d call. I should have saved these letters I got. They called me slut. They just said horrible things to me. I thought, “Oh thank God the tennis tour’s on its way. I don’t have to worry about that anymore.” I had to go take care of me by then. It was terrible. It is terrible, because it’s shame based anyway. This is just like throwing layers and layers more of shame. I knew that was unhealthy. I knew I had to get rid of it somehow or get through it, and you’ve got to go through it with pain. You cannot go around it, under it, over it. You’ve got to go through it. It’s the only way that I knew I would get healthy and be truthful and be my authentic self. To go through the pain is just, in a daily, 24/7 way, and so many people go through this, and so many people are afraid to go through it. Anybody out there, if you’re afraid to go through it, please get some help. Make sure you can trust them though.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Billie Jean King:
That’s the hard thing to decide, who’s trustworthy too. You do find out who your real friends are though. The one thing going through being outed and telling the truth, was you find out who your true friends are. There’s nothing like that, boy. Some that I thought would be my friends, did not end up being my friend, and I thought, “Wow.”
Amanda Doyle:
Who surprised you by being your friend?
Billie Jean King:
This official. I thought he would just go away. Jerry. I thought he would go away. He was absolutely the opposite. Got right in there, believed in me. You find out which players. You really find out which players. Chris Evert was fantastic, unbelievable. I hope everybody knows her name. She’s one of the all time greats.
Glennon Doyle:
Absolutely.
Billie Jean King:
She and Martina Navratilova. Martina’s gay, and Martina came up to me at Wimbledon right after the lawsuit and said, “I’m going to get outed by this guy,” the New York guy. I said, “Well, if you’re up to it, if you’re comfortable enough in your own skin, you need to control the messaging, and you need to just come out, if you can.” She was also scared because she was stateless at the moment. She did come out though, but soon as she wasn’t stateless anymore, she was a US citizen. She came out. I was outed. She came out. There’s a difference.
Glennon Doyle:
I love the surprise though. I agree. I had a time where it wasn’t that public, but I went through a public thing and felt very abandoned. I have a list of the six people during that time, when I was at my lowest and everybody was running away, who really showed up and checked on me, and they were all surprises.
Billie Jean King:
They were?
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, but I’m telling you if those people … I would die for those people, those six people. For the rest-
Billie Jean King:
No, I understand. I totally get that.
Glennon Doyle:
The people who come when you’re down.
Billie Jean King:
Totally.
Glennon Doyle:
Those are the ride or dies.
Billie Jean King:
I agree. That’s who you want on your team.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Billie Jean King:
We can make it through anything.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Billie Jean King:
That’s what you want in a team. You want to go, “We’re going to play for each other. We’re going to win and we’re going to do it in the right, with character, and we’re going to just give it everything we got.” That’s the way Abby played.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, she did.
Billie Jean King:
She was relentless. Oh my God. I loved it. That’s the kind of person I want on my team. What you went through in learning about your six friends, I mean those people, like you said, you’ll go to the end of the earth for them. I totally get it.
Amanda Doyle:
I have a question about how you were using food to numb, post retirement, when you had to figure things out. Surely, as you were playing, that same kind of turmoil and conflict was there. What were you using to numb? Was competition numbing?
Billie Jean King:
Yes. I think goals were numbing. If I wanted to win a tournament or be number one in the world, or if I made a goal. I would eat right. I would do everything I could. As soon as the tennis was gone though, whoa. Now what? Boy, was I binging. Ooh, it was so bad today. Today, of course I wake up every morning and say, “I have an eating disorder.” I’ll always have one.
Glennon Doyle:
Me too.
Billie Jean King:
I have that brain, the way everything works, and I understand it. Don’t have to like it, but I get it. The most important thing is to admit it and to be centered with it.
Glennon Doyle:
What are your strategies now? You still have the disorder. You still have pain. Everybody has pain. What do you do now? What do you replace binging with?
Billie Jean King:
I think I’m not afraid to think about it. In the old days, I would’ve played games around it, over it, not through it. Now, I think I force myself to kind of, “Okay, I’m going to get centered. I’m going to go through this.” I’m never going to get over an eating disorder. I’m always going to have it. It’s okay. That’s who I am. I make myself slow down. It’s like anger management. They always ask you to count to 10 before you start hitting somebody. You notice people with anger issues, they just get angry so quickly and they do want to hit somebody almost. If you can just count to 10 and then count to 20 if you have to. Just get your breathing under control, just calm down. I try to do the same thing. I love meditation helps me.
Glennon Doyle:
Me too.
Billie Jean King:
On my watch, I’ve got my minute, if I want to meditate. I’ll just take a minute or minute and a half and just say, “Okay, get centered. Just breathe.” Just do whatever I have to do to get centered again. Is it perfect? Never. No one’s perfect.
Abby Wambach:
Billie. We are both investors of the Angel City Soccer club.
Billie Jean King:
Yes, we are.
Abby Wambach:
Angel City FC.
Glennon Doyle:
We three.
Billie Jean King:
Three.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
We’re all investors. The first game standing in front of a sold out crowd at the opener, you were there. We were there.
Billie Jean King:
It was great.
Abby Wambach:
Even though we were surrounded by the most iconic women’s soccer players all time and some famous other people-
Billie Jean King:
You mean like Mia Hamm, for instance?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Billie Jean King:
Oh yeah. I think so.
Abby Wambach:
It was incredible. Everybody wanted to be near you. Everybody was like, “This does not happen without Billie. Do you think I could get a picture with Billie?,” they kept saying. Everybody there knew that you were the one. You’re the one that fought to lay the path so that we could build this thing. I don’t know how you have sustained the stamina that you have. I want to ask you: what is our thing? The priority of the generation, that is our moral obligation to fight for our daughters in the next generation. Even if we never see the fruits in our lifetime. For me, you have fought. I want you to rest. That is what I want. I want you to take-
Glennon Doyle:
Put us in, coach.
Billie Jean King:
That’s so sweet.
Abby Wambach:
What do you want us to do? We are the next generation. What is our thing?
Glennon Doyle:
What’s our fight?
Abby Wambach:
That we can go out into the world doing.
Billie Jean King:
First of all, you got to know yourself. What do you want to do? How would you like to contribute? First, you have to want to contribute. Secondly, what and how and then really think about it. You need to also love the fact you’re doing it. You can’t just go do it and go, “Ugh. I mean I made a promise.” You’ve got to come with your total self, if you want to do this. You may not want to do it, but if you do, which I hope you do, that you’ll decide what would give you satisfaction, because I love it. I loved it. Like in ‘96 in the Olympics was when you knew that title IX had started to take effect, because the US women teams, whether it was basketball, softball, soccer, we were winning the gold, even in tennis when I was the captain. I was the captain. Tennis was never in the Olympics.
Billie Jean King:
As close as I got to it, was being the coach or captain, they’d call it. I had a great time, cause we won everything. I love that. We won. It was the other sports. I went to the basketball, 34,000 people. Soccer had 76,000 people. Why? Because I knew it was title IX. I got such a thrill out of this. The other people, they didn’t really think about it, except a few of us. We’d go, “Can you believe it? Title IX is finally kicking in. It’s kicking ass.” Look what happened from 1970 with nine of us, and now we’ve got almost 10,000 women playing. You have to decide what’s going to make you tick, what’s going to make you happy. Not everyone’s meant to do what I did. I just love it.
Billie Jean King:
We’re trying to help hockey right now. They had meetings today about getting a new league started with hockey. It may or may not happen, but we’re going through the due diligence. It’s a lot of work. I just love it. Soccer should be the biggest sport in the world. It is with men, and at least men are having teams now. Barcelona women had what? Over 90,000? I think they beat the record at the rose bowl, which I hate to bring up, cause I thought that was such a great day.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, but records are meant to be broken, so it’s a good thing.
Billie Jean King:
Yeah, they are.
Amanda Doyle:
Their record of 90 million watching battle of the sexes is pretty-
Glennon Doyle:
90 million.
Amanda Doyle:
That top it, doesn’t it?
Billie Jean King:
Yeah. Well, super bowls get more than that. We had 117,000 watch the super bowl for the men this year. I’d like that many to watch the women. Why not?
Glennon Doyle:
I do love Billie Jean King’s Why Not? That could be your next memoir.
Billie Jean King:
Yeah. Why not?
Glennon Doyle:
Why not? Why the hell not? Billie Jean, we are so unbelievably grateful for you in the world. Billie Jean King, little things that we could take away. Number one, the goals can be numbing. That’s why everyone freaks out after something big happens because the goals are numbing.
Billie Jean King:
Let’s go eat or drink, right? Drink, eat, when you’re going to a game. Right? We don’t drink alcohol, Ilana or me, so I love food.
Glennon Doyle:
We don’t either.
Abby Wambach:
We don’t either.
Glennon Doyle:
Food’s all we have left, Billie Jean.
Billie Jean King:
Oh, you don’t drink?
Glennon Doyle:
No, we don’t drink.
Abby Wambach:
We’re all sober here.
Billie Jean King:
You don’t drink at all? Are you?
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Billie Jean King:
Did you have to work at it though? You did, right?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. Yeah. I’m six years sober. Glennon’s almost 20, and Amanda, I think you’re two now.
Amanda Doyle:
Two years sober.
Billie Jean King:
That’s great. Last time I saw you Abby, before these last few times, you were getting out of a car. Ilana and I were with you. I could tell then you were unhappy. I was feeling so bad for you. You were sitting to my left. Ilana was to my right. I was in the middle, and we were taking you, I think to your car maybe. I could tell you were in such pain though, and I didn’t know you well enough to say anything.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I was at the end of my career. I just retired and I was struggling with alcohol and prescription drugs, but I got sober shortly thereafter. Then luckily, I got to be meet Glennon and start a whole different life.
Billie Jean King:
That’s great.
Abby Wambach:
You used food to numb. I was using booze to numb the transition of my retirement. It was scary because I didn’t make enough money as a woman professional soccer player. I realized then that I was only comparing myself to other women athletes. I think that this was a really big aha moment for me. I think something you’ve been trying to tell us all along: why not get the same amount as the guys, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Compare yourself to them.
Abby Wambach:
Why not compare yourself to them? I was going through it, for sure. Now, I’m sober and-
Glennon Doyle:
I can’t believe you saw her and felt that sadness.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that was a weird time.
Billie Jean King:
I did. I said to Ilana, and I always thought about it. I always brought it up, but I knew that you were getting better because then I saw you again later and went, “I think she’s okay now.” You can tell by someone’s face and expressions. It’s really rough. I kept track of you through others too. I’d ask, “Is she okay?” They said, “Yeah, she’s doing great.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
Can I ask a last question? As someone who is, has had a life as prolific and impactful and frankly just really audaciously ambitious of a life …
Glennon Doyle:
Audaciously.
Amanda Doyle:
I heard an interview where you said, “I love life. I’ve always been excited about life. Ever since I was a baby. I’ve loved life.”
Billie Jean King:
That’s true.
Amanda Doyle:
The engine that fuels this audacity, where does that zest come from? That love of life. How do you rekindle it? You’ve been through so many hard things. How do you rekindle that love of life that fuels all of this?
Billie Jean King:
Well, I think I got really lucky with my parents. They really loved each other, but I was like that from the time I was born. I told my mom at seven, “Mommy, Mommy, I’m going to do something great with my life. I just feel it.” She goes, “That’s fine honey, but just dry those dishes.” She always kept my brother and me very grounded, but we’re the ones that pushed my parents. We just were so motivated. We love what we do. I love the ball. Throw me the ball. If I see a ball, I just get all excited. My brother, it was our third word we ever learned. I just had all these dreams. I just knew. I kept looking and it was so obvious once I played tennis, I just went, “This is it.”
Billie Jean King:
I can hit a hundred balls in five minutes. I love hitting a tennis ball. There’s nothing like it for me. Oh, it’s so much fun. I thought about all the things you can do because of it. My dad, he was really a great life coach. He’s the one that told me. When I was 12 he said, “Do you really want to do this?” I go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah.” He said, “Do you know there’s a lot of heartache if you make it to the top in something?” Now, how did he, my dad, know all this? My brother and I just, oh, we were terrible. We just forced him. We had “Please take us to the court, take us to the ball game.” We couldn’t get enough. They didn’t care if we were any good, and that is magical. They never said, “Did you win?” Not once. “Did you win?” We told them: “I won. I lost. I can’t believe I lost. I played so bad.” My dad said, “Did you try your best?” “Well, of course I tried my best.” “Good enough.”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Billie Jean King says to all of you pod squaders.
Billie Jean King:
Yeah, baby.
Glennon Doyle:
Your next right thing. We do not ask if they won.
Billie Jean King:
They’ll tell you.
Glennon Doyle:
We just say, “Did you have fun? Did you try your best?” Isn’t that what your parents would say to you? “Did you have fun? Did you try your best?”
Billie Jean King:
They’d go. “How was it?” They allow us to express ourselves.
Glennon Doyle:
I learned that, because one time I said to one of our kids, I said, “Ooh, rough game,” because I thought she played horrible, and then she said, “I thought I was great.” That’s how I learned not to guess.
Billie Jean King:
Self-perception’s different. They’ll tell you. Man, they will just … kids are great. I go, “How’d it go?” and they go, they tell you.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I’d say, “How does it go?,” and she’d say, “I was amazing,” and I’d say, “Really?”
Billie Jean King:
You should just say, “Great.” You could say, not should. Should’s a judgment. Could’s a better word.
Abby Wambach:
Billie Jean, thank you for coming and joining us and all the work that you have done. I really don’t think you need to do anymore, if you don’t want to. You get to choose to retire, but thank you for everything you’ve done for women’s soccer.
Glennon Doyle:
She’ll never retire. Look at that lady.
Billie Jean King:
I’ll never retire. Are you kidding?
Amanda Doyle:
She loves life. Since she was a baby, she loves life.
Billie Jean King:
I’m buzzed.
Abby Wambach:
We love you.
Billie Jean King:
I want these different women’s sports to happen, and I want women to ask for what they want and need. I want men and all of us, I want all of us to be feminists, basically. Let’s go. We’re all feminist.
Abby Wambach:
Let’s go.
Glennon Doyle:
Let’s go.
Amanda Doyle:
Let’s go.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you so much.
Billie Jean King:
You guys are great.
Amanda Doyle:
Thank you.
Billie Jean King:
You’ve got a great show. Everyone just raves about your show, by the way.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you. Well, you’ve just made it even better.
Billie Jean King:
Anyway. Thank you so much. I hope we get to see each other soon.
Amanda Doyle:
Me too.
Billie Jean King:
Maybe at a Angel City game. I don’t know.
Glennon Doyle:
Wonderful. Next time, I’ll actually ask for a picture with you. This last time, I just secret …
Billie Jean King:
We got one.
Glennon Doyle:
I know, but before you did that, I was just sidling up to you asking people to take secret pictures of me next to you.
Billie Jean King:
No, I saw you. Don’t worry. I saw you.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, you saw me.
Billie Jean King:
I saw you. I said, “Ilana, we got to get a photo with them.”
Amanda Doyle:
Take mercy on her. She’s embarrassing herself.
Billie Jean King:
No. I liked the fact she wanted a photo though. I thought that was cool.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you so much, Billie Jean.
Glennon Doyle:
We love you forever.
Abby Wambach:
Say hello to Ilana. Thank you so much.
Billie Jean King:
Thanks. I will. Thanks, you guys. Love you guys. Bye.
Abby Wambach:
See you next time, pod squaders.
Glennon Doyle:
Bye.
Billie Jean King:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, so good. I can’t believe she saw me taking secret pictures.
Billie Jean King:
Of course, I saw you.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on Apple podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.