Enneagram: What does your number say about you? with Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober
April 21, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Hi, babe.
Abby Wambach:
This going to be so exciting.
Glennon Doyle:
How are you?
Abby Wambach:
I’m very good. I’m very good and I’m very excited about this specific episode.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so here’s what happened. We put something out on the Instagram that said, “Please tell us who you want to hear from on We Can Do Hard Things.” Because it’s super important to us that this is a conversation, that you’re telling us what you want to talk about, we’re telling you what we want to talk about and that it’s a back and forth. So 33,000 comments later, literally. It was so amazing. It made me so emotional that day, because two things happened. First of all, pod squaders said, “Here’s a really important person in my life who’s helped me and who is smart and kind and thoughtful and funny and please meet my friend, whomever,” or my expert whomever, which is so beautiful to me. I freaking love it when people go out on a limb to hook up their friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Or, the second thing that happened, was that people would be like, “Okay, hi. This is really scary for me, but me. You should talk to me. I’m really smart and good at what I do and you all should talk to me.” We have a treasure trove now of people who are doing amazing, beautiful work in their families or their professional lives or wherever that now we get to choose from for the rest of our podcast lives. Repeatedly, a lot of people asked us to do an episode on the Enneagram and a lot of those people asked us to talk to Enneagram Ashton. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Woo hoo!
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so first of all I want to say a couple things, one, we don’t really understand the freaking Enneagram, so we’ve had very little experience with this, but we did do our research, some research before this.
Abby Wambach:
We did.
Glennon Doyle:
So we have kind of ideas of what we are.
Abby Wambach:
I have 20 years of confused research, so we’re glad to have an expert.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. And I resented the Enneagram for the last week, because I really, really don’t like to be labeled. And then I found out the first thing that my little number was that these people really resist labeling and they feel misunderstood often. Anyway, let us please introduce to the We Can Do Hard Things family, someone you requested, and her name is Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober and she’s a professor, author, public speaker, community psychologist, and certified Enneagram educator. She created Enneagram Ashton in early 2019 and she’s the author of Enneagram for Relationships, The Two of Us: A Three-Year Couple’s Journal. We need to do that one, too.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, for sure.
Glennon Doyle:
And the Enneagram Made Simple, which just published in January. You can find her on Instagram at @enneagramashton. Ashton, hi.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited to be here. Glennon, you are one of my top three idols in my life.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, Ashton.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
I’m not joking. I just want you to know how much of an impact you’ve had on my life. I went through a divorce when I was 25. One thing that you said, “It’s brave if you leave, it’s brave if you stay,” just always stuck with me and your little reminders about, “You’ve watched my descent, now get ready for the rising,” if you would’ve told 25 year old Ashton, who was posting things that Glennon Doyle was saying on Facebook, so many years ago, that I would be sitting here with you, it just is a very cool thing. So much love to you.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, oh sister.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Thanks for having me on and-
Glennon Doyle:
You’re so welcome.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
… I’m honored to be able to share this information with your community.
Glennon Doyle:
You are so welcome.
Amanda Doyle:
Actually, I wanted to circle back, because Aston said you’re one of her top three, so I assume Ashton, the other two are Abby and me, right?
Abby Wambach:
Me and sister.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Of course, of course.
Abby Wambach:
Of course.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, okay. Ashton, what WTF is the Enneagram?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The Enneagram is really an ancient personality typing system that has been around for 2,000 to 4,000 years. It’s really, really old. It started in the Middle East and then has creeped it’s way over to the U.S. really in the ’60s, ’70s with technology and social media it has really just taken off immensely in the past several years, because of that ability to share knowledge and want to really understand each other. So it’s a typing system, similar to other things like Myers-Briggs, StrengthsFinder, the five love languages, where it separates people into types, but the biggest difference being that it’s about what motivates our behavior, so it’s not about our behaviors. So the three of you could be doing the same exact thing, but having completely different motivations.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Wow.
Abby Wambach:
She just got it. Just now.
Glennon Doyle:
I did. I did.
Abby Wambach:
Just she got it.
Glennon Doyle:
I just got it.
Abby Wambach:
I saw it happen.
Glennon Doyle:
I did. We’ve been talking about this for a week straight.
Abby Wambach:
For freaking weeks.
Glennon Doyle:
So all three of us are here on this podcast doing this interview and having this job, but all three of us are here for different reasons. And when I say three, I know you’re here also, Ashton, I’m just talking about-
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, it’s okay.
Glennon Doyle:
… me and Abby and sister. Okay, so let’s figure that out by the end of this hour, why the hell, based on our numbers we are here doing this.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, that’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
But can you tell us, Ashton, just one of the things I love about it, it’s also very relational.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s not just about who I am, it’s about how I interact with other people, how do we know ourselves so that we can know how better to interact with our people.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Absolutely. And that is, honestly, why I gravitated towards the Enneagram, it’s why I am obsessed with it and have adopted it as a career, because I just want people to understand each other. I want people to really be able to understand, “Oh, when this person does this thing that might annoy me, I know why, what’s going into that motivation or what’s going into the reason why they do that.”
Glennon Doyle:
I love it. Can you go through, Ashton, just not in a long way, but just tell us, there’s nine types, right?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you briefly tell us, because I want everyone who’s listening to kind of… I know nobody can figure out their type just on a podcast, but just give us a little ditty about each one, so people can kind of try to find themselves.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yes. So remember I said the Enneagram is about motivations, and so those motivations are made up of your biggest fears and your biggest desires. So each type has a fear that they relate to or a few fears that they relate to, and then what they really want in life. So the Enneagram one is called the reformer. Their biggest fear is being seen as a bad person or not doing things the right way, with their biggest desire then, to be seen as a good person, to be moral, ethical, right in what they do. Enneagram two is the helper, that’s me. So their biggest desire is to be loved, wanted, appreciated, with their biggest fear being unloved, unwanted, unappreciated, really just not needed. Enneagram threes are the achiever. So their biggest fear is typically failure, so they fear failure the most, but they also fear being seen as incompetent of incapable of doing something, with their biggest desire being they want to be successful, they want to be respected, they want to be seen as being able to get the job done.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Four are the individualists. Their biggest desire is to create significance, they want to create meaning, they want to be different or set apart in some way, but their biggest fear is that they are defective or something’s wrong with them. So they want to be different, but they don’t want to be defective.
Glennon Doyle:
Moving right along, number fives.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yes. The five is the investigator. Their biggest fear is not being knowledgeable or being seen as ignorant. And then, their biggest desire is to really just know all the things, gain all the research, and to be seen as competent and knowledgeable. Sixes are the loyalist. Their biggest fear is typically fear itself, so they have a really strong relationship with fear, but they also fear being without support, security, or guidance with, then, their biggest desire to have that support, guidance, and security from the people around them, their environment, their relationships, things like that. Sevens, they’re the enthusiasts. They’re the most extroverted on the Enneagram. Their biggest desire is to have fun, right? But they also are seeking contentment, so they do all of the things, because they’re looking for that contentment. And then, their biggest fear, they do fear missing out, so they do have that FOMO, but they really fear being trapped in emotional pain or negativity, so then they don’t want to have the hard discussions and they’ll turn onto the positive side of things to avoid those negative things.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The eight is the challenger. And so, their biggest fear is being seen as weak, powerless, or controlled in some way, with their biggest desire to protect themselves and other people. And then, nine, the peacemaker, their biggest fear is conflict, so they hate all conflict, they avoid all conflict, with their biggest desire being to maintain a peaceful environment.
Amanda Doyle:
Awesome. What I love about this whole Enneagram is that it isn’t like a box. Here’s your nine boxes and you’re in it. What I love about it is that is has, and it’s not static, here’s what you are and always what you’re going to be. It just answers that question, at least speaking for myself, that I always have, which is why do I always do what I do? Why am I always like this? It kind of shows you your passion and your virtue, right? You can look at it and see who you are based on your fixed patterns of what you do over and over again.
Amanda Doyle:
But also, understanding it shows you what your real gifts are, because all nine of these have beautiful, beautiful gifts in them, that if you’re able to see your pattern and kind of have compassion for yourself to understand, “Oh, that’s why I always do that,” and look at your partner or look at your friends and say, “Oh, that’s why you always do that,” because it’s coming from this motivation that is ultimately about fulfilling who you are. It’s not my gift, it’s not what my purpose is, and so often we miss each other. It’s a cool system to kind of have compassion for yourself and for everyone else.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, absolutely.
Glennon Doyle:
Ooh, compassion builder. I like that.
Abby Wambach:
It allows-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s a compassion builder. It really is.
Abby Wambach:
I think that it allows us to get closer to each other, especially for those of us who are a little bit scared of too much vulnerability, it gives us a little bit, a teeny bit of structure that makes us feel, A, less alone, and B, more capable, because it’s information. Information to be able to connect. I can speak for Glennon and I, this is totally up our alley. We are totally in on this. We’re very excited, but it’s also very kind of confusing, because, for me, I have three that I scored pretty high on, and that feels like, “Well, which one is it? Could it be the third, the second, the first?”
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
So I saw your results, Abby, and you score high for seven, three, and two, which are all part of what we call the optimist triad. Sevens, threes, and twos, they all have very similar characteristics, where they are optimists, they do tend to look on the bright side and have that energy and like to get things done. It is just about the motivation, so are you doing that to be seen as successful, to search for contentment-
Abby Wambach:
Yes, yes.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
… or because you are wanting to be love by other people. So, again, very similar characteristics. Nines, stereotypically hate conflict the most, but that doesn’t mean that other people love conflict. I hate conflict, I’m sure you do, Abby-
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
… because you’re in that section. But it just means that that’s not your main motivation for doing something. So it’s-
Glennon Doyle:
So let’s start-
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
… fascinating-
Glennon Doyle:
… with Abby.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
… when you think about it that way.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, let’s start with Abby, since we jumped in with Abby. So Abby took the test. I know you’re not supposed to take a test, but we did some tests, okay, we did some tests, because we were preparing.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
I always tell people you can find out a lot of information, but all of you saw you scored high for a lot of different types, and so what you can do then is kind of just do the research and we are a society that loves people to tell us who we are and not have to figure it out on our own, but that’s the true and only way to really figure out your type is to sit with those main desires and those main fears and look inward and see what sits with you.
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
So I want to tell you one thing that I thought was amazing.
Abby Wambach:
That’s the part that I have always been missing in my life. I’m like, “The test is telling me something. And great, I believe is,” and then that’s it. I’ve been doing Enneagram tests without the research for 20 years.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, really?
Abby Wambach:
Yes. I’ve been doing it since college.
Glennon Doyle:
Can you tell Ashton why you kept getting three and this is the first time you’ve ever really gotten your real number. Please share with Ashton.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, so interestingly enough, I’ve always seen myself as a three, as the achiever, the performer, and now I’m seeing myself more as a complete seven, as the enthusiast. And I think the big reason is I was taking the tests with who I wanted to be more than who I have been throughout the whole of my life.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Absolutely.
Abby Wambach:
And, of course, we have traits in all of these Enneagrams, all the types. But as an athlete, I had to. It was literally mind over matter, so I had to see myself as this achiever, because I want to be one of the best in the world. And I wanted to be a part of a team that was winning championships and part of the whole shebang there is you got to sometimes fake it until you make it, you got to believe it before it’s actually even true. You have to believe it into existence. And so, the irony is now I’m five, six years out, this is the first time I’ve taken the test since retiring-
Glennon Doyle:
Without cheating. She would look at questions and say, “What would a three say here? Would an achiever… how would they answer this question.” And then, that’s how she would answer it. And I understand that, because I really didn’t want to be a four. Okay. Because fours, I feel like, are whiny and annoying. So I answered the question as if I were the leader, as if I were fierce, I think an eight.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
An eight, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So Abby has been getting threes and I’ve been getting eights all the time, because we know how to beat an Enneagram test.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, we’re smart.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
So in preparation for this podcast, this is the first time we’ve ever been honest. Sister, tell us about your experience with the Enneagram, this time around.
Amanda Doyle:
I’m a three. Everything I read, I’m like, “God, damn.” It is just is and then I read about some of the other ones and I get so jealous, because it really is a way that you are. It’s undeniable that that is who I am, but it does give you compassion for yourself, because I see that is the way I view the world.
Glennon Doyle:
And how? What’s a three.
Amanda Doyle:
So achievement, opportunity to improve, everything can be improved. You see anything that is good and you think, “How can that have been better?” You just want to achieve the highest level and that comes from love. When I am in integrated, when I am at my healthiest, all of my work is sacred work. Threes are very much related to working and output and achievement and success, so all of my work can be sacred work and it’s all really a gift of love. So there can become an effortlessness in threes, because all of our work, when it’s flowing from your love, feels natural and right to you. But when I’m disintegrated, when I’m in stress, all of my love is flowing from the work. So in health, I love and this work flows from my love, and then, in stress, it’s I work and my worthiness flows from my work.
Glennon Doyle:
So you feel only worthy based on your work?
Amanda Doyle:
Right and-
Glennon Doyle:
You work gives you your worthiness?
Amanda Doyle:
Right. And any kind of achievement, any kind of success, any kind of… from stuff in my home, stuff in my family, stuff outward things with degrees and straight As and whatever it it, its’ like that is my way of communicating my love, but becomes a tricky place for threes, because at least, for me, I’m running around thinking I’m doing my life’s purpose and I am loving my people to death, and it looks like I’m going around just haranguing them with constant critiques, because I’m trying to make everything better all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
You’re trying to optimize everything. Is that what it it? So you’re trying to improve your people, is that what a three can look like in their homes? Ashton, do you see that? Is it like the achiever is trying to change things so much that it makes people feel like their loving them to death?
Amanda Doyle:
There’s always a goal, right? There’s always a goal. Everything has a goal.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
There’s always a goal and there’s always efficiency. I’m going to do this the best way that I can and I’m going to expect that other people are also going to do that. And then, if they don’t, that’s where the knowledge of this comes into play, because there are a lot of people who don’t think that way or who aren’t as hardworking, maybe, as threes, or who aren’t are goal, results, focused as threes are and people then don’t understand how they couldn’t be that way.
Abby Wambach:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It can be tough on a relationship.
Glennon Doyle:
Because it feels like love, right?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
It looks like-
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
So for threes, it looks like, “If I do this, then people will love and respect me for doing this.” And then, “If I don’t have a job to do or if I don’t have a mile-long to-do list, then I must not be loved by people.”
Glennon Doyle:
Hmm.
Amanda Doyle:
Is it true that the reverse can be true, because if I’m expressing my care, by working toward a goal, then if I see other people expressing their care in a different way, which is just maybe just being or enjoying or relaxing, I experience that as a lack of care. If you cared as much as I cared, you would be trying to get this for us, the way I’m trying to get this for us.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, that’s right, sissy.
Abby Wambach:
Well, Ashton-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s what happens with you.
Abby Wambach:
… can you explain a little bit, each of us has a type and when we are at our best and when we are at our worst, it kind of brings out different… Can you explain that? The security points and the stress points?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, so each type has a different number that we go to when we’re in stress and then a different number that we go to when we’re in growth. And really, it looks like you go to the high number, the high side of your number in growth, and the not so great characteristics of the type when you’re in stress. So what that looks like is, for ones, when they’re stressed, they will go to that low side of four, and that can look like internalizing your emotions, throwing themselves a pity party, kind of like, “Nobody understands me, nobody gets me.”
Glennon Doyle:
Do sister. Where would she go in stress? Where would she go in strength?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Threes get so overwhelmed by all of the things that they need to do that they just don’t do any of them, and that looks like going to the low side of a nine. So they have a difficult time getting started, almost become paralyzed and overwhelmed at all of the things and become procrastinators and just are going along to get along.
Glennon Doyle:
Hmm. Do you feel that, sissy?
Abby Wambach:
I don’t think I’ve ever seen sister not do things.
Amanda Doyle:
I have felt myself emotionally do that. I’m still doing the things, but the kind of excitement and drive that is normally inside me is dead, but I’m still doing all of the things, but without the kind of joy where it’s just like, this grinding through it, but without the kind of usual… I am working towards a goal, because that goal is so attractive and exciting and wonderful to have. It’s more just like, head down, just grinding. And so, emotionally, I am there, with the [crosstalk 00:24:10]-
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Would you say numbing out almost?
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, that makes sense.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, okay. So where does she go then in strength.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, so then threes will take on the really positive characteristics of a six. And that will look like being very community and relationship oriented, focused on others’ success and getting them to that place that they’re wanting to go. It also looks like being extremely prepared and responsible and just really loyal to their people, their relationships, their environment, things like that.
Amanda Doyle:
How does a three look in conflict in a relationship? Say in a partnership, a marriage, a relationship? What might a three bring to conflict that is helpful or hurtful? And theoretically, what if that three had almost zero peacemaker in them, had almost zero nine and in them and, say, theoretically, they were partnered with a solid nine.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so theoretically Ashton, what would that look like?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
So threes, in general, when any sort of emotional conflict occurs, they do numb out, like emotionally. But when it comes to wanting to deal with the conflict, they view it as a task, right? So they’re very task-oriented, so they want to check it off the list and move on. So they want to deal with it. I imagine if there’s a nine that’s in conflict, who’s actively not dealing with it, that that can cause some tension there, because threes want it to be over and handled.
Glennon Doyle:
That doesn’t at all sound familiar. What’s a pointer for a three whose life has become unmanageable?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, so threes really struggle with saying no, because they want to prove that they can do all of the things, so that is a huge piece for them. Also, really getting strong on your identity, who you are apart from the work that you’re doing, because so many threes, again, like we talked about, tie their worth, their value, into what they’re doing and oftentimes don’t know, they aren’t secure in that value aside from that.
Glennon Doyle:
Does that sound familiar, sissy? Or no?
Amanda Doyle:
No.
Glennon Doyle:
How do we love threes? How does the rest of the numbers love threes well, because I think, for me, it can feel… when I would say partnered with, I’m partnered with sissy in all of life, right? So when you’re partnered with a three and you are not a three, you can kind of feel almost defensive like, “I’m not doing enough, all the time, if I’m not matching that level of intensity, then I’m not being enough.” And that can become defensiveness where you’re trying to prove yourself to that person when all that person, I think what I’ve learned with sister, even before the Enneagram, is that she actually doesn’t need for me to work as hard as she is or be as intense as she is, to prove my love to her. She actually needs me to just tell her how valuable she it.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
That’s literally what I was about to say. They need that. They need that constant reassurance that they’re valuable without doing the things, but they also want to be celebrated for the things that their doing. So they really do appreciate validation. They love to be celebrated, they love to be told that they’re doing a good job, all of those things. But what’s interesting is that you had said that you feel like you’re not enough, but she also feels like she’s not enough. And so, I think just sitting in that similarity that you feel like you’re not enough for different reasons, and just remembering that as you approach a three, remembering that they do tie that value into what they’re doing and just reassuring that you do love and care about them and that you don’t care at all what they get done on their to-do list today, you just care about them.
Glennon Doyle:
Sister, I care about you so much and I think you’re doing a great job. I love you.
Abby Wambach:
And do whatever you want to do.
Glennon Doyle:
We have a question from a three and I just would love, Ashton, for you to field this one for us.
Dawn:
Hi, this is Dawn. I’m just going through a time in a life and a path I’ve never walked before. I can really relate to sister and all of the energy and passion that she puts into her work and job in the corporate type of sense, and I’ve been that person. I’m a type three Enneagram. I’m an achiever and a performer and I got a lot out of work all of my life. And now, I am completely burnt out. I gave everything to work and I’ve just reached a tipping point where I’ve needed to take time off work and I’m on leave. And it’s scary for me, because when I have the performer type side of me, I feel like I’m letting other people down and when you have burn out and other complicating factors, how do you tell yourself that you’re worth the time off, and that you’re more than your job when giving a sense of purpose and giving back to your community and performing is also a big part of you? So I’m just really struggling with that. I’m struggling with which part of it is my true identity and that’s who I am and which part of it is something that needs to heal. I would love your points of view and thank you.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Well, I think, first of all, it’s important to remember that that achieving side does not always connect to a job. Right? That there a lot of different ways in life that we want to achieve things. I have people who are stay at home moms who are like, “I can’t possibly be a three, because I don’t have a corporate job.” I think it’s important to remember that those stereotypes exist, but that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. And so, for Dawn, I just want you to really just focus in on who you are and what you want in this next chapter of life, because your worth and your value is not tied to the job that you’re taking leave from. And your mind and body and spirit are so much more important that any job will ever be and if you’re experiencing burn out, I think it’s important to really just sit with those feelings and see what it is, what’s the root of that burnout.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
If it’s that constant achieving, if it’s the constant need to say yes to everything. Then analyze those feelings, but I don’t want you to get caught up in thinking that, if don’t have this job, then I’m not worth anything or I can’t achieve in other areas.
Glennon Doyle:
So she can just take her achieving self… it’s like addiction, it like we just switch addiction. Can she be like, “I’m going to achieve the shit out of inner peace. I’m going to achieve the shit out of self-love.”
Abby Wambach:
I mean, that would be ideal. I actually scored pretty high in this and I think about the reality of kind of identifying so deeply in a certain way. Because when I retired from playing soccer, that was my identity and as a high achiever, it was important to me and that identity was important to me, so transitioning is really hard and nobody talks about those transitions in life, whether it’s a self-imposed transition or one that life kind of takes away from you, it really is hard.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m confused about achievers, because if you… No, really. If your whole identity is wrapped up in achieving, which is a manmade concept, right? Achievement is a climb. How does an achiever ever find peace? If we’re trying to find worthiness in just existence, I guess is what I’m saying, the answer is just, “I am worthy just for existing.” Can an achiever ever buy that? Or are they screwed forever?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
It’s part of the growth of, A, understanding this and that’s why I love the Enneagram, it’s putting words to how people have been feeling of am I able to actually just be? Threes really struggle with just being. They have to constantly be doing. And so, it’s a practice. Really, a lot of us, we’re in a society that’s constantly on the go, striving for efficiency and making money and if society is telling us to be that way, and then we naturally feel inclined to be that way, we have two things going against us.
Amanda Doyle:
I want to say one thing, I think one of the gifts of this Enneagram is not to educate each person away from their purpose.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Right? I could just as easily say to you, Glennon, there is no inherent realness or security in being different.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
That is a silly goal. Abby, there is no inherent or goodness or realness or purpose on this earth just in being content and feeling good.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s horse shit. You need to reevaluate yourself. The same thing is true with me, I am a goal-oriented person. I came on this earth this way, I’m going to go out that way.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
So trying to teach me to not be goal-oriented, is not the purpose of this.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
The purpose of this is for me to understand myself, to see my patterns, and to see my gifts and to make sure that I cannot be stuck in the constant cycle of fixated patterns, but I can move into my gift.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
And my gift is aligning the way I was made with the life I want to have.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right, that’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Abby Wambach:
And I think that it’s really easy-
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Abby Wambach:
It’s really easy.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m so sorry I just tried to fix you. Shit.
Amanda Doyle:
Because you’re a four.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
Because the way you see the world… Enneagram above all, to me, is nine different ways of seeing, of being, and responding to what we see.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
So when you see me, when you see my goal-oriented, you say, “Oh, that’s so silly.”
Abby Wambach:
Why is she striving so much?
Amanda Doyle:
“That’s so not right.”
Abby Wambach:
There’s more to life.
Glennon Doyle:
And so, it’s almost like you could look at me, a four, and be like, “But what is the point of sitting around trying to figure yourself out, for your entire life.” So you could be like, “Are fours totally screwed forever?”
Abby Wambach:
This is a good segue.
Glennon Doyle:
Ashton, you said before, you said one of the things that would be important for sister and I in our partnership is to understand that both of us come to the table both feeling like we’re not enough. Just for different reasons.
Amanda Doyle:
Would you say that’s true of all of them? All of us feel like we’re not enough or is it just of a certain triad?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
It’s mostly twos, threes, and fours. [crosstalk 00:36:29] Twos, threes, and fours feel like they’re not enough.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so why do I not feel like I’m not enough?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Because you tend to gravitate toward feeling like you’re defective or like something is wrong with you. And so, it’s just a natural feeling that you don’t have enough to bring to others, whereas sister’s going to feel like she’s not doing enough.
Glennon Doyle:
Ah, I don’t have enough to bring to others. That’s so interesting. Okay, what is the core value of a four, of my type?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The fours, they want to be seen, heard, understood, and that’s because they often have that fear of being defective. They also want to create significance, so they love deep conversations. They’re very emotional. So this is a huge thing when people who resist that vulnerability, when they look at the fours, they’re like, “How could you even be that emotional?” Right?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Threes often feel like emotions mess with their ability to get things done, like they’re distraction from the work.
Amanda Doyle:
They do. They actually do.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, that’s interesting, because you would feel that way, right? You would feel like these feelings… say we’re on a meeting or whatever, you would feel that way, right? You would feel like, “These feelings…” Say we’re on a meeting or whatever and you would feel like the feelings that I’m talking about in that moment are a distraction from the work. I would feel like the feelings are the work. This is the whole point, if we don’t work through this, we’re not doing the work. So it’s important to differentiate ourselves, to feel like we are different. I really didn’t want to be a four. I feel like fours are exhausting-
Abby Wambach:
That makes you so four. That’s so four of you.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so four of me. So what does a four look like in a relationship? How do they show up in familial or relationship ways?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, so they’re going to be, like I said, the ones who have the most feelings and they’re going to encourage their people to also have those feelings, so be able to be vulnerable and that change can come from experiencing these vulnerable moment with each other. So it tends to look a lot like that in relationships, but also just wanting to be seen and heard by your partner and wanting to be understood and wanting to just, sometimes, sit and process and-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
We always say to people about fours, if they’re sad, just let them be sad.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, Ashton.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Stop trying to cheer them up. If they want to process those emotions, let them do that.
Abby Wambach:
And the seven over here, the enthusiast, is like, just bright siding.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, that was actually one of the biggest difficulties in our early relationship is I was just like, Mr. or Mrs. Brightside over here. And she’s like, “You don’t have to do that. You don’t have to fix this. You don’t have to make it right. You don’t have to make it even better.”
Glennon Doyle:
Well, because there’s an element of sevens that can feel like spiritual bypassing.
Abby Wambach:
I know that’s what you think, but I genuinely believe that it is okay.
Glennon Doyle:
How is that possible to believe that?
Abby Wambach:
I know that’s what you think, but that’s just the way that I feel and see it.
Amanda Doyle:
Because your core desire is to be contented.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
And so, you’re seeing what you’re looking for, right? We’re all seeing what we’re looking for, so Ashton a seven like Abby, if her core need is to be content, she’s going to be look for all data that confirms that and disregarding all data that suggests that she should not feel contented.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Right, so if Glennon is feeling feelings in the moment and is wanting to process being sad, Abby’s going to look at that as, “Glennon’s not content, what I would do is actively do whatever I can to be content and try to fix the situation.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
And Glennon’s thinking, “What I want more than anything is to be known and understood.” And for me to be known and understood, I need to stay here for a little longer, explain it to death.
Abby Wambach:
Luckily, for sevens, this is a process by which you can learn to just listen.
Glennon Doyle:
Is there a better gift for a four than a seven? Just to see enthusiasm and celebration. Let’s play that voicemail from the seven, because I think it was about relationships. I really liked it.
Ally:
Hi Glennon. My name is Ally. I just wanted to know if y’all have ever explored the Enneagram. Me and my wife, I’m a seven, which is the enthusiast, and she is a six, which is the loyalist, which sounds like it would be a really good combination, but at times it’s very, very hard the way we argue and the way we communicate is extremely different and it’s taken us a while to kind of navigate through that. So I was wondering if you knew what each of your Enneagram numbers were. It’s super, super fun and interesting to know how each other communicates.
Glennon Doyle:
So talk to us about relationships, Ashton. Talk to us about how knowing our numbers. This, she’s a seven and a six, a loyalist and an enthusiast. How does knowing the number of each other and ourselves help us in our conflicts in our relationships?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
This is the bread and butter of the Enneagram. Knowing that, you can allow that person to really be who they need you to be in that moment. So for a seven and a six, sixes are stereotypically the ones that have a lot of worry and doubt and fears, remember their strongly connected to fear, and then, if you have a seven who’s like, “Let’s look on the bright side, it’s not actually going to happen,” the six can tend to feel like their fears are invalidated, because the seven is saying, and really believing with their whole being that things will always turn out okay. And sixes feel like they need to prepare for all of the scenarios, just in case. But understanding that about each other can help you adjust some of those behaviors that might feel invalidating in your relationships.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, the relationship between the three of us. So we’re all on this podcast, say the three of us are at a table, we’ve had a conflict and we’re miscommunication or whatever. I’m thinking about, sister, when you and I sometimes are in a conflict and I ask so many questions. I’m imagining this thing that happens where I’m doing this thing that I feel like is helpful, but I can see on your face it’s not helpful, but I don’t understand why and I’m wondering right now if it’s because I am coming to the conflict with the goal of, “We are all going to leave this understanding the shit out of each other.” And so, in order to do this, I need to ask you 49,000 questions-
Abby Wambach:
Which makes her feel completely questioned and that you don’t trust her.
Glennon Doyle:
Do you understand the vibe I’m talking about?
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
I can see her face and she’s getting defensive of something.
Abby Wambach:
Like, “Who do you think you are? I’ve done all of this work. I know these answers,” she’s saying.
Glennon Doyle:
So the reason I’m doing it that way is because I’m coming to the table thinking, “The goal here is that we all leave here completely understanding each other.” So if she comes to the table in the middle of a conflict, what she really needs, sissy, is it for me to… what is it? What is your motivation when you come to the table?
Amanda Doyle:
We can use the conflict that you had before, where sometimes I bring so much intensity to a situation or so many like, “Here’s the 10 things and here’s what we’re going to do,” and then you feel like you have this kind of implicit defensiveness of, “Well, either she’s suggesting I’m not doing enough,” or I need to validate how much I’m doing so that she knows that I’m not letting her down. And then, you’re kind of pushing me away and telling me the reasons why all of this is unreasonable and I’m doing too much and it’s too much, when really what I want you to do is just receive my love in the form of all of these things that I have brought. I’m not asking you to bring me anything back, but me bringing that intensity to you, has you feeling like you need to explain yourself from where you sit, so that I know you, I know where you’re coming from.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I will sometimes leave those intense meetings and I’ll turn to Abby and I’ll say, “She seems really stressed. She seemed so stressed.” And Abby will go, “No.”
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Well, and I think it’s because threes are so focused in on the task and job that needs to be done that, to other people, who don’t function that way, that can look like stress, because that would stress us out.
Glennon Doyle:
I feel the energy of it, so if sister comes with a bunch of things, I’m not thinking about the things, I’m looking at her thinking, “Does she feel okay? How does she feel?” When she’s talking, I’m seeing a flurry of things and I’m thinking, “But does she look… how is she feeling?” And then she’s like, “What the fuck does that matter?”
Amanda Doyle:
No, no, no. What happens is you come in and then you say to me, “Well, have you thought about giving this job to so-and-so? Have you thought about maybe we don’t have to do it that way? Have you thought about…” So you’re trying to deal with taking care of me and all I hear when you say those things to me is, “You’re not doing a good enough job.”
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
And you can’t do the job.
Amanda Doyle:
And you can’t do the job, because when you are trying to take things away from me that I’m doing or suggest alternatives-
Abby Wambach:
Damn.
Amanda Doyle:
… the only thing that I hear is, “I am not achieving the way I need to be achieving or I wouldn’t be getting these questions.”
Glennon Doyle:
Wow.
Abby Wambach:
This is a real breakthrough, folks. We’re having a real breakthrough.
Glennon Doyle:
And I’m thinking, “If I were saying all of those words, and I had that piece of paper she has with that list, I would actually die.” Basically, we’re in triage and I have to save my sister’s life right now.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, because you’re coming to it with each perspective of type and you’re treating her how you want to be treated, rather than seeing it from her type’s perspective.
Glennon Doyle:
And it’s like a relief, too. It’s like, “Oh, I don’t have to do it. I don’t have to fix it.” It comes back to every fricking thing. Right, Ashton? It’s like, I don’t have to fix anybody.
Amanda Doyle:
If you understand where people are coming from, and this, Ashton, my husband a nine, he’s a peacemaker and that has been so interesting, because it’s like he is so deeply good, he has all of this peace and harmony about him and he’s just super emotionally stable and easy going, all of those gifts can become liabilities if we’re not seeing them as their gifts. I can either see his easygoingness as this stabilizing emotional force in our relationship and our family that keeps everything steady and peaceful, or I can find it to be this kind of complacency that if he were to be exhibiting his care the way I exhibited it, he would be striving more. And I’m sure he doesn’t see my striving as a gift, because he probably is like, “Why can’t she just be peaceful-
Glennon Doyle:
Love me. Why can’t she love me how I am?
Amanda Doyle:
Right, right.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Well, and that’s part of the Enneagram is him understanding this side about you just like I can hear you really deeply trying to understand that side about him.
Abby Wambach:
Here’s the thing, I think that people would be surprised in no way that sister has been preparing for this like she was here to save her life, and she is so… you’ve been texting us and all of these memes and this is the just achiever in you and I’m like, “Damn, that’s so cool.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s wonderful to feel seen though, and Ashton, it’s a relief, it’s a bit of relief because we can feel like our challenges are so personal like their all little neuroses when really, when you begin to understand what you do, Ashton, you feel like you’re part of this tapestry and all of these things are being woven together.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
And that’s what we seen a lot, is this sigh of relief almost that other people think like I do or other people do things the way that I do and I’m not actually crazy.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
And I do things, because I’m made this way.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, yes. That’s it. Can you talk a little bit about nines, Ashton, because I think that there’s so many nines out there and I think it’s important to say that there’s not one gift that is better and one that’s more burdened or whatever.
Abby Wambach:
I mean, the sevens are the best because…
Glennon Doyle:
I kind of agree.
Amanda Doyle:
Sevens have more fun, but every one of them has an equal depth of them. Just because you seek to be content, Abby… sevens bring forth possibility because they see it, they bring forth good things in the world, because they’re able to see them, whereas other people cannot see them, so there isn’t any depth and a shallowness of any of these. But I know so many folks are nines, can you just talk about them for a little bit.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
I feel like nines are always the type that people want to be. I wish that I could have just no care in the world and just focus on my peaceful environment and just go through life that way. They have their own struggles, too. They avoid conflict more than any other type and that’s because it messes with their peace. Their biggest desire is to protect their peaceful environment, whether that be a physical way or emotionally they want to protect their emotional peace, as well. But oftentimes, this forces them to no voice their opinions, not voice their thoughts, their wants, their needs, because of that threat to their peace. And so, then they build up resentment, it can look like being passive-aggressive, because they’re not vocalizing those things.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, if every Enneagram type shows up at a dinner party, they’re all around one table, what does every type bring? Okay, I’m thinking-
Abby Wambach:
Like food?
Glennon Doyle:
… the seven’s bring music.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Decorations.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, the decorations. The seven brings the decorations.
Abby Wambach:
This is a good question.
Glennon Doyle:
I know what four brings, they bring the game-
Amanda Doyle:
You bring the question cards.
Glennon Doyle:
The question cards.
Amanda Doyle:
The little question cards, of course-
Glennon Doyle:
Because I-
Amanda Doyle:
She literally does that, Ashton.
Glennon Doyle:
I do that everywhere I go.
Amanda Doyle:
She literally brings the question cards at every meal.
Glennon Doyle:
I don’t know what you think about the weather, just please answer this question about your deepest fear and regret in life.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
My mom’s best friend is a four and when I was a teenager, they sat down and made the question jar-
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
… that every boyfriend that we brought home had to go through the question jar and I was like, “This is so weird. I can’t believe that this is a thing.” And then, when I discovered the Enneagram, it’s a trend with fours, they want to have the deep conversations.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh my god. That makes me feel so much better. We do that at the dinner table with all our kids, our kids’ friends. I thought we are the coolest family, because we sit down, we really talk. [Ama 00:53:39] says to me, a couple years ago, “So-and-so’s over.” I say, “Okay, dinner’s in 20 minutes, whatever, Abby’s cooking.” She goes, I’m making these names up, she goes, “Ashley wants to just eat upstairs in my room, is that okay?” And I was like, “Wait, why? We’re going to have dinner.” She goes, “Well, she just said to me, ‘Your family’s intense, dude.'” And I was so embarrassed and sad, because I thought we were doing this great thing.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
That’s amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
If you’ve ever heard, “You’re a little intense, dude.” You might be a four, right? Okay, so the four brings the cards. What does the one bring? The reformer? What does the one bring to the dinner table?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The one is going to bring, I’m just thinking about how they’re going to be punctual, first of all, they’re going to be on time. They’ll probably be hosting it with a very clean house. They’re going to bring that order and organization to it.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, maybe some Tupperwares to organize the leftovers.
Abby Wambach:
No, they’ve got name cards.
Glennon Doyle:
Name cards. Okay.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, they’ve got name cards around the table.
Glennon Doyle:
What about a two? What does a two bring?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The twos could also be hosting, because they are typically-
Abby Wambach:
They’re bringing the food.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
… they enjoy having people over and things like that. They’re going to bring, probably dessert, but they’re also going to be the one that’s helping clean up the dishes, wash the dishes, put things away, making sure that everybody has had enough to eat.
Glennon Doyle:
They’re helping you to death?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
They’re going to call everyone beforehand and see if anyone needs a ride or do you need a babysitter, because here’s my list of people. Just taking care of everybody.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
My issue when I arrive at places is I always overbring the items, because I don’t want to run out. I don’t want people to feel like they haven’t had enough.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow, okay. So everybody wants to have a best friend who’s a two.
Amanda Doyle:
So what does the three bring?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
So the three is, stereotypically, going to want to bring the best item, right? So they’re going to home make the cookies or home make the food, that’s the best recipe, one that has been tested and people have had before.
Amanda Doyle:
Or they don’t come, because their workaholism-
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Are working.
Amanda Doyle:
… is masking their need to avoid intimacy. Got it. Okay.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Or they bring some sort of competition or game or something like that.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, cool. So then the fours have their little cards that they’re going to get to know everybody.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The conversations. They’re going to bring the conversations.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, and then the fives?
Abby Wambach:
The investigator.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
They’re not going.
Glennon Doyle:
They’re not going.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The fives are not going. They don’t love social interactions. They love to stay at home. If they are coming, they’re going to bring the random facts. They’re big on random facts, they are big on doing research, so things like that. But they might just be sitting at the table not talking.
Glennon Doyle:
They’re at home reading. And then, what about sixes, what do they bring to the party?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The sixes are going to also bring conversation, but they’re going to bring a recipe that has maybe been in the family for like 25, 30 years, something that is familiar. They’re big on familiar. They go to the same restaurants over and over again, order the same thing, things like that.
Glennon Doyle:
Comfort? Like security, stability? Okay, they have their security blanket. Okay. And then, the seven brings the decorations.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The fun.
Abby Wambach:
No, myself.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, the decorations, the music, whatever that looks like.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, awesome. And then, the eights? What do they bring?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
The eight is going to pretty much tell you how the party is going to go and they’re going to delegate where they need to, they’re going to be throwing the party, but not hosting the party.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, trying to control it without doing the work of hosting it.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yes.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, and they also know how it could’ve been better?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Every minute, how each thing could be better and how it’s sucking.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Glennon Doyle:
And then what do our nines bring?
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
They’re also about comfort, so they’re going to bring whatever feels comfortable to them. They’re going to bring a host or hostess gift. They’re going to make sure that other people feel comfortable and things like that.
Glennon Doyle:
And are they going to be the one that reminds us at dinner that we don’t talk about politics or religion or money, they just keep that-
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
I don’t even think they’ll remind you, because of the threat that it might be brought up.
Glennon Doyle:
Oh, okay. They’re just holding their breath the whole time.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
I think they’ll just hold their breath and hope it doesn’t happen and if it does, just retreat.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, they go pee then. That’s when they go pee or something. Okay. Well, this sounds like a super fun dinner party. Ashton, this has been so wonderful. Thank you so much. I think that the work you’re doing is so fricking cool and important, because what could be more important than knowing each other better, so that we can love each other the way that we were meant… and treat each other the way other people need to be treated, not the way we want to be treated.
Abby Wambach:
I have been reading these complicated books and trying to figure this shit out for years, for decades, and I finally got my hands on your book and thank you for making it simple. It’s literally called The Enneagram Made Simple. And I just wanted to say that you making this and putting it in more simple terms for me, has reinvigorated me to want to do the research, not just the tests.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you, Ashton. We adore you.
Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober:
Thank you.
Glennon Doyle:
For our next right thing, just check out Ashton. Check out the Enneagram. See if it helps you understand yourself and other people better. When life gets hard this week, don’t you forget, all you various numbers, we can do hard things. See you soon. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially, be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it. It’s fine.