How Do We Make–and Keep–Good Friends?
January 27, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Hi, everybody, you came back. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We are proving that we can do hard things by talking for significant amounts of time, about things we know nothing about that issue this week being: friendship. Friendship.
Abby Wambach:
Why?
Glennon Doyle:
How? When?
Abby Wambach:
What? Who? [crosstalk 00:00:42].
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, it’s just such an interesting thing to discuss right now because wow is this a doozy of a time in human history in terms of everything, one being connection. And like we were talking so much in the last episode, if connection is what we need in order to be happy and healthy, there’s no question about why we’re so freaking unhappy right now. I mean, have we ever been so isolated from each other, and more just enmeshed with just like the people we live with, if we are living with anyone in an unhealthy way, probably right? Just to be totally solely dependent on a few people. And then, just so isolated from friendships we’re used to, from community, how are you doing Sissy? What do you think of all of this?
Amanda Doyle:
When everything started in 2020, there was a little bit of like a kind of, it was horrible and sad, but you had like some energy, you had some Rosie the Riveter situation where you’re like, “I can do it. I can pull through, and gather my resources and my people, and we can find a way.” And a bazillionteen years later, and we’re still going through it. It just feels like Surrender Sarah. It’s just like-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s Rosie the Riveter to Surrender Sarah. Wah-wah.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s just like, what, even? Why? No, this is just life now. It’s just like a wall man. It’s a wall. And I think that actually the social isolation has been this kind of creeper that we haven’t really registered. I mean, obviously it’s been the overwhelming stress, it’s been that having to reinvent and invent our lives, it’s been fear for our families, it’s been all of this, but I think a silent player in this has been what we didn’t recognize was fortifying us through the other times; these connections, these kind of everyday interactions, and also the reliance on these ritualized connections with friends, the disappearance of that, because we culturally don’t value it, it disappeared silently, and we don’t connect the kind of serious anguish that, speaking only for myself, we’re going through right now. I think a lot of it is attributed to that.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so interesting. And especially as someone who, I mean, I think on the introvert scale, I’m probably a 10, being most introverted. I can tell myself, and I hear a lot of people saying this in my little, highly sensitive introvert community of people, we really believe that these are the conditions that we actually need to thrive. And I really think that even me, even an introvert 10, I have not been doing very well lately, just psychologically, daily. I think I have finally proven to myself that I actually do need other human beings in some form, not just in pages of books, right? Not just on my computer, but actual human beings, because I think you’re right. I think that’s one of the major traumas of, right, right now.
Glennon Doyle:
I was writing a thing the other day about the idea that everyone just keeps saying, “I’m so over it. I’m so over it.” Well, okay. Being so over, it does not in fact make it over. There’s no amount of angst, and anger, and apathy that we can have that will then result in a pandemic just being over, and that’s part of the Sarah Surrender thing; even though we don’t have any more capacity to deal with this, we must, we still have to because it’s still existing. I was writing about that and I put out the, “We have to keep showing up for each other because we belong to each other.” It was like, who’s the, “We?” I have forgotten who the we. Is when we’re out in the community, when we’re seeing other people, when we’re connecting, even when those people annoy us, even then, whatever, there’s this idea of the, “We,” that is kind of what keeps you going. And now it’s just without seeing each other, without looking each other’s eyes the, “We” is gone. And then I think the, “We” has actually crumbled a little bit because of what’s really seems like a failure of direction, of guidance, of good decision making. It feels like this every man for themselves mentality.
Glennon Doyle:
And so, the every man for themselves mentality, the constantly having make decisions without any guidance, the feeling like you’re an island and then you’re actually being an island, we don’t have any of the things that get our resilience activated.
Amanda Doyle:
It feels much like a perfect storm. It’s like, what is that, “Exhaustion makes cowards of us all?”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like, we are so physically, emotionally, spiritually exhausted. We are hope starved. And then, in the ecosystem of social interactions, we’re at this really crisis point even introverts. So, I think it’s worth drilling in on that because I think we have a disproportionate number of introverts, I would guess that listen to this podcast. And I think that, as you’re saying, when you didn’t identify, you’re saying, “This is great for me for the first X amount of time,” because you don’t have that need as much as others. I think even for folks like you were hitting a crisis. And so, I think it’s interesting to talk about, so this Professor Kay Tye, she discovered that we all have a social set point that is similar to hunger, where we have, you know how like with hunger, or temperature, or thirst our brain circuits, our whole being has its own set point.
Amanda Doyle:
So I know I am satiated when I eat, I know that I’m not thirsty anymore when I have this. There’s a thing called social homeostasis where we have a drive to seek out balance of that. And I have always felt like a bad friend, because I don’t crave the things that I think that good friends crave. I don’t crave getting on the phone and calling someone, I don’t crave making a coffee date. I always thought there were good friends, there were people who were good who got excited about those things. I feel resentful, and annoyed, and burdened by those things. When I know that I have a coffee date, all I is pray that someone cancels the coffee date.
Glennon Doyle:
Same, game of chicken every time. Just if I wait it out, maybe they’ll cancel and then I can get credit for not canceling. Game of chicken. Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. So I’ve always been, well clearly the only rationale for that is that I am an asshole who doesn’t deserve friends anyway, since all I want is to not ever do anything with friends. And it doesn’t have anything to do with liking them or not. I very much like them, but I-
Abby Wambach:
Why don’t you want to then?
Amanda Doyle:
I think it’s very similar to exercise and any of these other things, where I don’t ever want to do the thing, but after I do it, I feel good, and it’s doing good things for my mind, and soul, and body, but my cravings are not aligned with my needs. And the interesting thing about that is that there is no, “Should” social amount, right?
Glennon Doyle:
Exactly. So can we talk about that?
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Because is that it?
Amanda Doyle:
It is.
Glennon Doyle:
A culture, we have defined mental health. We have defined physical health. We know as human beings that if we want to have a healthful capacity in that certain area, we have to do certain things that do not necessarily crave. We have lists of things that we can check off that we have done to address our mental health, to address our physical health, is there another realm that needs to be explored and planted in people to understand that friendship health is a whole nother thing that we have to contribute to?
Abby Wambach:
I have a hypothesis listening to you two.
Glennon Doyle:
What is it?
Abby Wambach:
Because I would say that I fall in similar categories of not having a ton of friends, as you two. Do you think this could have something to do with motherhood martyrdom, in that friendships, so if we had a priority list of things that you needed to get done in a day, you’ve got kid stuff, work stuff, and kid stuff, work stuff, kid stuff, work stuff, maybe some health and wellness and self care in there. Do you think friendships are like a privilege that gets put at the end of that list for women more, especially? Because quite frankly, I don’t see a lot of men out there having a struggle with the relationship with friends.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s actually not true. Men have more of a struggle. You don’t hear it because they’re not talking about it. One in five men can’t identify a single good solid friend.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Amanda Doyle:
That is so tragic.
Glennon Doyle:
It is very tragic. And it is a problem.
Amanda Doyle:
I was so you know, I was so proud of Craig, actually did you see on Instagram, right on New Year’s Day or something, he posted a few pictures of him with some friends at different times of the year, and he said, “My intention for 2022 is to foster and nurture my friendships.”
Abby Wambach:
I mean, listen, this guy, he had a New Year’s Eve party.
Glennon Doyle:
He had New Year’s Eve party, which was very social distancing. Only a few people.
Abby Wambach:
One of his friends came up to me and said, like, I was his or something, “Craig has just been such an addition, such a great addition to our friend group.” And I was like, “What a compliment.” Freaking Craig Milton getting the compliment of all compliments.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
He’s the best. He’s such a dear friend, but-
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, it’s an example of being of a guy being vulnerable enough to value and publicly state that they want to value friendship. And I think it’s probably harder for men too, because it’s not just about finding the time; it’s about finding the vulnerability, talk about not having a structure, they’re not even allowed to talk the real things that human beings need to talk about to make friendship helpful, like your actual life, and your actual pain, and your actual vulnerability and your actual struggles, men have-
Abby Wambach:
Weather and work.
Amanda Doyle:
Weather and work and sports.
Abby Wambach:
And sports. Yeah.
Amanda Doyle:
I think Glennon, and what you’re saying about, is there a cultural understanding we need to develop to get the value of social connection in our lives? I think as a society, we don’t value it, but I also think it becomes problematic because then you run into this world where introverts, and extroverts, and me feeling like I must be an asshole because I don’t want to get together all, all the time to do this thing. And so, I think it’s important to say, and I felt very relieved to learn this, but each one of us has a very individualized, social homeostatic set point. Right? So you think of it as a hunger; some people will eat two bowls of pasta and they’re like, “Now I’m good.” Some people will eat smaller amount, the same thing applies to a social isolation starts to deteriorate our brain, our body very, very quickly for each of us, but how quickly that happens, depends on how introverted or extroverted we are. Wow. Because our introversion and sets that socio homeostatic set point.
Amanda Doyle:
So, it’s interesting because like the way the mind works. So, Glennon as an introvert, if you have a little bit of social isolation, your body will automatically crave that just like hunger, and you will crave out some kind of connection, and you will get it because it’s a natural part of your body’s craving. But your body will dump a lot of dopamine when you get that social interaction, so that you don’t need A lot of social interaction. So, brief, infrequent social interactions for you, you’re craving satiated. You’re good. you’re like, “I literally am good.” So when you ask me to do this other thing, I don’t want to do, I am resentful, because I don’t need it the way you need it.
Glennon Doyle:
The way you need it. It’s like, you’re keeping, serving me over and over again, and I already said I’m full.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly. Right. Whereas being over overserved, I’m being overserved. And in fact, you’re asking me to meet because you know the secret resentment that you always have where, basically I’m doing something for you, it’s in fact true. Because they actually need more, they crave more. So you are meeting their need by being with them, so like they have, because they get a lower dopamine dump out of every social interaction, they need more frequent.
Abby Wambach:
And they are extroverts to do-
Amanda Doyle:
They have a higher level of extrovert, they need more. And I think it’s also helpful to understand each other, like A, that helps me understand, like there’s nothing wrong with me. My brain circuits just require less of that. And then, if I have a friend who doesn’t understand why I only want to get together every third time, maybe it’s like, “Oh, it’s not that I don’t love you just as much as they do, it’s that that’s not what my body is asking for.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, you can be my favorite food, but if I’m already stuffed, I don’t want any more of it.
Abby Wambach:
How are we to know if this is social anxiety or introversion? To me, it feels like a little bit that it’s like an excuse making also for social anxious people. I think that you’re a social anxious person Glennon, and also an introvert. So how do you know which is the difference-
Glennon Doyle:
When to push and when to not?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Because I think it’s important that you still get interaction, even if it doesn’t feel 100% like-
Glennon Doyle:
It’s such a good question in terms of, so how do you know what’s good for you? What amount is good for you? Is it all based on how you feel? Because it’s not necessarily that way, when it comes to mental health or physical health; I feel like I don’t want to go for a walk.
Abby Wambach:
Every time. And every time you feel like you don’t want to go to dinner or you don’t want… But when they leave, you’re like, “That was so great.”
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it could be this crisis point we’re in, because this is the rub, is that our self-regulation of our cravings only works in typical times. When we’re having this chronic level of social isolation, it stops working. So listen to this; you know how you eat when you’re hungry, you eat when you’re hungry, once you’ve been fasting, your body doesn’t crave the food the way your body craved pre-fast, the exact same thing happens in our bodies. So right now we have been restricted from social contacts that we would prefer to have. And we are so socially isolated that we are out of our set points, and that is developing the elevated stress hormones, all of the negative effects and the craving is not happening.
Abby Wambach:
That’s true. That rings true to me.
Glennon Doyle:
Me too. Do you know what?
Abby Wambach:
That rings true.
Glennon Doyle:
You know what you’re saying in fancy words is what I have been feeling the last couple weeks, and the best way to describe it is dead inside.
Abby Wambach:
Yep.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I just feel absolutely dead inside. Nothing that I do that would normally bring back the magic of the day, or give me a boost, or just feeling everything. It’s like, fine, I’m going through the motions, but I’m utterly dead inside. And so that’s what… Okay, so on that positive note, I would like for us to move discussing, in the last episode we talked about how we’re all three kind of deciding that we believe it, we believe the hype about friendship being good for us and adding layers of magic-
Amanda Doyle:
The hype. Also science, but hype.
Glennon Doyle:
To me, it’s hype.
Glennon Doyle:
I want to talk with the three of us about what each of us are going to do. Like what we’ve told ourselves in terms of why we haven’t been able to have friendships in our lives. And now what we’re kind of like, next right thinging. Because I feel like all three of us have been kind of deciding we’re going to try something new, because we want this. In order to get a different result, you have to try something different, right?
Abby Wambach:
Definition of insanity. Right?
Glennon Doyle:
So what are we going to try differently to begin to build this incredible building block of life, which is friendship? So what have you told yourself, babe, about why you haven’t been able to be a good friend and what are you to do differently?
Abby Wambach:
So, I’m going to say some words and just hear me out.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay.
Abby Wambach:
As a soccer player, everything that I did was all about me, and it was a very selfish exploration. And in order to do it at that level, I do believe that I had to think about myself and my life as this very rare, and very exclusive kind of life. I was traveling the world, I got to play in front of amazing. I got to do amazing things. And so, it gave me this excuse, I think, and the story I have is that I’m a bad friend, but I had this noble cause, this noble reason for being this bad friend. So I didn’t have this consistency with my life, and I was always gone, so being on the road all the time, and I do live a very present life.
Glennon Doyle:
You do. So, you’re so present in the moment that you’re not thinking about who is not there.
Abby Wambach:
And it does make me forget about thinking about my friends in the whole of my life. So I don’t know. I was horrible at keeping in touch with people because of, I think the person that I am and I always just thought, “Well, I’m a bad friend in this way.” I think because I’m not traveling as much, that’s been such a gift during this weird pandemic time, because I haven’t been on the road and still I’m not staying in touch with my friends.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, do you think, I mean, one of the things we’ve talked about is that the maypole that we talked about in the other, that you did have, I mean, when your friends from your soccer life talk about you, they talk about you in ways that are so beautiful, the way that you were friends to them, and the way that you showed up for them. And I wonder if having the maypole of soccer is, you did have a special mission. You did have a special vehicle for friendship. And that is what a lot of people do, that’s what book clubs are about, it’s like, people create a structure around something that is important to them personally To create friendships. So is recreating a maypole what you need? You’re not going to just think about them for no reason. Do you need a project?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. Because I think overall, what I know about my happiness with friendships, I had a happier friendship life during my playing days because we had this maypole, so couple years ago, this is literally before the pandemic, in 2019, I reached out to a couple of my former teammates to ask them, to see if they wanted to run a marathon with me. We decided to do that, and then we went on this two year escapade because of course the pandemic canceled the marathon in 2020. We ended up running it in 2021 in November, and so I understand now that sometimes, when life happens, you have to go out and create certain things to see what works and what won’t work.
Glennon Doyle:
Because it’s integrating your life. Sometimes I think in terms of a very busy life also, we don’t have these huge chunks of time just to set aside for friendship. So I think it’s a cool idea to think about what you need in your life, and what you want in your life, and what your curiosities are in your passions, and then include friendship in those things. So for you, that marathon running, that running that physical commitment to a physical goal was something you would’ve been doing anyway, but you circled your friends into it because then this individual mission became a friendship building mission also, so it’s combining the two.
Abby Wambach:
But what was interesting is that wasn’t necessarily my intention at first. I wasn’t capable of reaching into the whole of why I was doing it. I was really doing it because I just needed some help, and some support in running. And then, over the literal year and a half of the training bit, I mean, just this last week, we’ve been texting about families, and aging parents and the struggle of our own personal mental health with small children during the pandemic, and had I not needed this help and accountability in my pursuit of wanting to run a marathon, I would have, not could have, I would have missed out on not just knowing other people, but their lives are informative for me and in my life. Right? And not that I give them much or anything really, but sharing a story is so fucking important.
Abby Wambach:
And I don’t know, every time we get off of a text chain with my friends, my marathon, my former teammates, I should say, my marathon friends now I feel more full. I feel like, “Oh, we’re sharing, and we’re caring about each other.” And each one of us are in kind of different phases of our children’s ages and us folks who have children that are older, and that have left the nest we are able to share a little bit of wisdom, and those who are younger are able to make me understand, oh, small children and parenting small children right now is fucking brutal.
Glennon Doyle:
Impossible.
Abby Wambach:
It’s brutal. And the grace that we have to give parents is so important. So, this is all to say that the things that I want to be doing and learning about, I want to be inviting my friends into that because I think that that is, for me, the way to get to intimacy in friendship. It’s like driving in the car, right? Like how you can have sometimes a better conversation both looking forward without having to be forced to be too intimate. For me, that’s what-
Glennon Doyle:
That makes so much sense-
Abby Wambach:
Creating that maypole around some other thing. And like for instance my friend, Katie, and I, we started running, becoming friends, working out and all we did was talk about our lives during our runs. And those were some of the most important runs that I’ve had over the last five years. Because you got to express yourself and talk about family stuff, and stuff that I was going through personally, and yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
So, you’re going to invite human beings that you want to be connected in, into efforts, and projects and interests that you have?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. I want, I want maybe-
Glennon Doyle:
That’s a good take on it.
Abby Wambach:
To create some maypoles, some more maypoles in my life, whether it be around hobbies or things I’m learning, you know?
Glennon Doyle:
So, the story you’ve been telling your yourself is that you had this special thing going, so you couldn’t be a good friend, when in fact it might be the special thing That allows you to be your best friend self.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. For me. That’s kind of my avenue.
Amanda Doyle:
And it’s so cool because it’s kind of like, that magic just needs a vehicle. Right, because the magic will flow, but we’re not in touch enough with our needs to on any given Tuesday, you’re not going to call Katie and be like, “I just need 45 minutes of your time so I can chat through this thing.” But if you are in a flow of some kind of ritualized connection with somebody, whether it’s a book club, or running, or whatever, then it flows just through that’s vehicle which is cool. What about you, Sister? What is your story and what are you going to do?
Glennon Doyle:
Well, I think that what I’ve told myself is that it’s a lot to survive. That it is a lot to make it through the day, and to be a mom, and to be a partner, and to be a sister, and to be a writer and to be all these things, and that’s all what I can do. I’ve looked at sections of life and been like, “Okay, if I have mental health, I have physical health. I have work. I have family. And then there’s friendship, and maybe a couple other things I don’t know about. I can do these few. I’m going to do motherhood.” Right?
Abby Wambach:
You do it so well, I’m going to-
Amanda Doyle:
You’re nailing it, nailing it, Sister.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m going to do my marriage. I’m going to do work.
Abby Wambach:
Do that well too.
Glennon Doyle:
Thank you babe. And that’s what I’m going to do. And I’m okay letting go of that one section, because I know my capacity, and if at the end of the day, I’m on my death bed and it’s just my family there, but I’ve had this good life in other ways, that’ll be fine. I’ll be cool with that. What I think I’m understanding, truly listening to you and this conversation is that perhaps I’m not thinking about it exactly right, because perhaps I could be doing a better job or being happier inside of my mental, physical and familial health and work health if I infused every area with friendship, if I didn’t think of it as a separate thing. So, I think I’ve got like a wagon and a… What’s it a cart and a horse thing or something?I think I’ve gotten a little bit backwards. I do want to integrate friendship into my life.
Glennon Doyle:
I also think that there’s this interesting thing that happens when I had young kids, when you were talking about people and communities needing each other to survive, I felt that when my kids were very little. I felt like I was losing my mind constantly, and having friends, or other moms around was necessary to my survival. And then, when the kids get a little older, for some reason that just away and there’s many reasons; there’s less immediate physical terror constantly. It’s like less physically taxing.
Abby Wambach:
You’re sleeping a little bit more. Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
But also it’s lonely or because when kids are little, all their problems are the same. You can talk about your kid in a way when your kids are little, that when they become older and have their little individual personalities, and their problems become their own, and their lives become their own that you can’t talk about anymore with other people. It’s lonely raising tweens and teens because they have the Venn diagram of what is life and what is your life, of what is childhood, and what is parenthood is not one big circle anymore. It’s like, you don’t get to share their stories anymore, and that is lonely for you because their stories are still your life. But not really. So, it’s your life, but it’s not parts that you have the right to share, so it’s more isolating.
Glennon Doyle:
So then, your kids get older, older like ours and you’ve find yourself with, well, they call it an empty nest, but there is a bit of emptiness and it’s not-
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, I see what you did there. You empty nested to emptinesses.
Glennon Doyle:
I literally never thought of that before, but it is an emptiness, but it’s not just literal and it’s not bad. It’s an emptiness in terms of space that can be filled up with something else finally.
Amanda Doyle:
It’s like possibility.
Glennon Doyle:
Possibility. I love emptiness. I love nothingness. I think that’s one of my favorite parts of life is the nothingness because something is going to swoop in.
Abby Wambach:
It’s interesting because especially when kids are little, very little, they feel like you and you feel like them, there’s no boundaries, but as they get older, and they actually leave it’s this for sure, understanding that they are an individual independent of you. And there’s an emptiness that goes along with that as a parent, like, “Oh no, I have to fill my life up with things too.”
Glennon Doyle:
And I think that’s true. And I think instead of woe is meing about them leaving, it’s kind of like, huh there’s all this space now. What am I going to do? What am I going to fill it with? Because the worst kinds of parents are the ones that continue to try to get their children to can continue to feel that when their kids are trying to go make their own life. I do feel all my same fears in terms of starting friendships, which we’re starting now with some people that we are feeling excited about, is that I’m still afraid of commitment, because I’m afraid of commitment that I don’t understand. And I also feel like, because I live my life so much through writing, and through this sort of thing that, as Abby knows, I always feel like I’m going to be the disappointment in real life.
Abby Wambach:
Oh.
Glennon Doyle:
So I always have that. One of the reasons I don’t want to go to coffee, I don’t want to like… Because you’re going to be disappointed.
Abby Wambach:
I’ll write you a letter.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I’ll write you a letter and my letter will crush, and you will be like, “This is the best.” But then if I’m just sitting with you, I’m kind of quiet in person.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, but baby, I just couldn’t disagree more with your belief system. You are so fucking good in the flesh. You are.
Amanda Doyle:
Hey, not the kind of podcast Abby
Abby Wambach:
And smart. And I couldn’t disagree more with your personal belief system.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, thank you. I mean, I will tell you that I am going to continue to pursue our friends, this new couple that we have become friends with.
Abby Wambach:
And this is like-
Glennon Doyle:
And let’s just tell you how it happens. This woman reached out to us through this other person, and was like, “We need to be friends,” and okay. One of the things I liked about this reaching out was that it felt very formal and official, and there was information in it. Okay? There was what sort of friends they are. There were pictures of a recent celebration that they had had, which was really precious. There were dogs, it was very weird and unusual, but it worked for me. I felt like I knew enough about them to escalate. We met-
Amanda Doyle:
Well, it’s speaking your intentionality language.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Amanda Doyle:
This isn’t an arbitrary, casual happenstance of a situation.
Glennon Doyle:
It was a very long proposal almost. And it was full of life. “Here’s our life. Here’s what we have to offer. I’ve read your stuff and listened to your stuff, I think I know what you have to offer. Here’s our full, beautiful life that we can offer you.” I don’t know. It just really worked for me. So this couple came over, I said, “Come over in the morning.” I think the first time we got together, it was 7:30 in the morning at their house-
Abby Wambach:
Well, because this is another sober couple. And like for us, one of our biggest things is being sober; we’re not going out to a bar after nine o’clock, we’re in bed at 9 o’clock.
Glennon Doyle:
Dinner is too late. I’m not my best self. I know when I’m my best self. 7:30 AM until 10:00-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. We’re about to hit the witching hour.
Glennon Doyle:
I’m talking 10:00 AM. Not 10:00 PM. Okay? 10:00 AM is when all my coffee, i.e. hope and joy runs out. Okay? So the point is, I actually feel afraid with this friendship, because I like them so much, and they’re so special, and so kind, and loving, and good and smart. And-
Abby Wambach:
You know what you’ve been doing? You’ve been paying attention in this friendship. This is the first friendship I’ve seen you really pay attention.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. I know because they make me feel less lonely, they make me feel very tethered. And so, do you know what we’re doing, Sister, we have been escalating the relationship. What I’ve thought of is that I think we’ve gotten to the point where we’re deciding we’re going away for a trip together. Oh my God. So, I don’t want to be a disappointment is what I’m saying. I don’t know that I trust myself. I’m serious. I’ve never had like a long term friendship where I’ve been shown up consistently, and it’s still there, and I’ve never just this them or missed something huge or done whatever, because I didn’t get sober until I was 25, and then when I got sober, I just became a family person. So my point is, I think I’m going to talk about this to my new friend. I think I’m going to ask my new friend, “What do you want from a friendship?”
Abby Wambach:
Friends. There’s two of them.
Glennon Doyle:
I need to know what my job is and whether or not I can accept job.
Abby Wambach:
Maybe this could be part of the little trip that we’re taking, maybe we can say, “Hey, listen, we do better with expectations.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. What do you want, and need, and dream from our friendship?”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah. God that feels so-
Glennon Doyle:
“What’s the truest, most beautiful friendship you can imagine?”
Amanda Doyle:
Oh, that’s so good.
Abby Wambach:
I feel so, so cringey about this conversation already.
Amanda Doyle:
Well, I know who you’re talking about. The four of y’all are, this isn’t too woo-wooy. But I do think for your average teddy bear like me, I think it is inspiring to have this idea that in adulthood, the beauty of being an older person is to be able to look around and have the experience to know, “Hey, that looks like person and a relationship that would be edifying to me. That one, not that one, but that one.” And I have enough confidence, and self embodiment to put myself out there and be like, “I know who I am and what I bring. I’m looking at you, I’m beginning to see who you are and you bring. I propose that we see what we can do together.” Yeah. I love it.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s kind of super badass to present yourself to someone, because it suggests that you have enormous amount to offer, and it’s a compliment to them to suggest that they do too. So I think it’s kind of cool to think about it that way. When you think about it, you would never just assume exclusivity, or some kind of special status of a romantic relationship without talking about it, except me and middle school with a certain philandering seventh grader. But the point is, you would have a conversation, you would say, “Are you interested in this?”
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah, and it seems it seems like we should be doing that to friends.
Glennon Doyle:
More intentionality, an expectation setting. What about you, Sissy? What are you doing differently to have a different result?
Amanda Doyle:
I think that I’m being honest with myself with the fact that, we talked a little bit in this last podcast is that I don’t crave what I need, and that my instincts are not to go towards things that fill my need and make me feel better. And they’re more towards the kind of low hanging fruit of efficiency and productivity and mindlessness. And so, I think that’s a good part of being in this desperate place of the wall of this pandemic is that I know I need to change things. And so I think my next right thing is just kind of remembering that about myself, just because I don’t feel like I have the energy, or the craving to call a friend, that’s my brain lying to me, and I know that on the other side of that, there will be a different outcome than what I have right now. And so, I’m just trying to do, I’m actually doing it, which is crazy. And I think if I do it enough that it will rewire my brain more appropriately that I will crave what is actually sustaining to me. And so-
Glennon Doyle:
And does it make you feel tethered, re-tethered after you do this things, does that ring true to you?
Amanda Doyle:
It does. And it also has this thing of, I always feel like I’m like, “Oh my God,” but I get on the phone, and first of all, I have to text people before I call them to say, “Everyone is alive, everyone’s breathing, don’t worry. I’m going to call you now.” Because people are so used to me only calling if there’s a proper emergency.
Abby Wambach:
That’s just kindness.
Amanda Doyle:
It is kind. Yeah, it is kind. And then, but it’s possible just to have like a six minute check in. It is possible.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Let’s get some questions from our Pod Squad friends.
Sophia:
Hi Glennon, and Amanda and Abby. I’m Sophia, I’m from Orlando, and my question is: how do we know the difference between loyalty and being a martyr? How do we know that it’s the right time to be loyal to the people that we love and in our friendships, and how do we know when it’s time to let go, and we’re accepting less for ourselves than we deserve> I think oftentimes I’m mistake loyalty in my friendships for really just holding on too long. It’s really hard to navigate when is the right time for a friendship breakup, I guess, and one is their best time to be a good and loyal friend? That’s my hardest thing right now. So I love you guys, bye.
Glennon Doyle:
Sophia, tell me if you think this is true Sister, because it feels true to me, but I don’t know. Sometimes I can be a little bit too black and white about things. So I’m trying to think if there’s any scenario in which being loyal to somebody else means not being loyal to yourself, and that should be the right choice. If Sophia is having to decide between being loyal to herself, and her own knowing, and her own peace, and being loyal to this other person, if staying with that other person means abandoning herself, then I don’t think that can ever be the right decision. Isn’t it loyalty to another person, she shouldn’t it always coincide with self loyalty? Is there a scenario in which I decide, “Okay, even though this feels wrong to me, even though this is not an alignment with my own values, even though this is a negative experience for me in terms of friendship, I am going to stay with you.” Is that ever the correct response for either a person?
Amanda Doyle:
I think the confusing part, Sophia sounds like a person whose identity and values align with, “I am a good and loyal friend.” It isn’t as clear as, to her, it sounds like, “Do I stay loyal to your loyal to me?” It seems to me that she has built probably through a lot of her life and love, the identity, and the value of being a good friend and valuing in her life. So, that’s probably more confusing. But to me, I mean the part where she said, “How do we know when it’s time to let go, and when we’re accepting less for ourselves than we deserve?” I mean, that’s kind of the whole ballgame and she’s describing a really good friend of hers, but I think of it like at daycare. When my kids were really little and we would occasionally get notes home from school, and they would never tell us the name of the kid because of confidentiality protections, but we’d always get notes home that said something like, “Wanted to let you know that. Unfortunately, during block time today, one of Bobby’s friends threw a brick at Bobby’s head.” Or, “One of Alice’s friends pushed Alice off the slide.” And I used to laugh so hard at that because I’d be like, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Their friends aren’t doing… And that’s kind of what I feel like with Sophia.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s so good. It’s like how people are like, “I can’t stand my friends,” or, “I have this friend that is such an asshole to me.”
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
“I have this friend who never listens to me,” or, “I have this friend who constantly makes me feel bad.” Like, no, you don’t. You have of something else.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes ma’am. If your best friend is doing that to you, she is in fact, not your best friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Right. Okay, but can we trace back some of this bullshit thinking to when we’re little, and we’re forced to be around these people, and other people convince us that these are our friends doing horrible things to us-
Amanda Doyle:
Throwing blocks at us.
Glennon Doyle:
And then we get older and we don’t know why our friends are throwing blocks at us and we’re still calling them back.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, I think so. And I think it does get caught up in the identity of us. If friendship is super important to us, to, “Abandon this friendship,” leave this friendship, does that change how we view ourselves? I mean, it’s very tricky.
Glennon Doyle:
Can we just say also, if what’s important to Sophia is the identity of, “I am a good friend and friendship’s important to me and I don’t just abandon friendship.” Sophia gets to keep that identity if she, for herself decides what a friendship is. Because if she decides, if Sophia rethinks her definition of friendship, and decides that a good, edifying, life giving friendship is a friendship in which she is in fact, getting what she deserves, as is the other person, then Sophia not only has the right, but the responsibility to leave this friendship, because it’s not a friendship by her own definition. Right? Sophia can only be a good friend if knows what the word, “Friend” means to her.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Because friendship is not martyrdom, good friendship is not martyrdom, just like good motherhood is not martyrdom.
Amanda Doyle:
And that hurts. It hurts to look and say that that friend is in fact not being a good friend to you, but I think we can’t allow the tragedy of that truth prevent us from seeing that truth. You can both grieve it, you can be very, very sad and you can accept it at the same time.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right. Because that goes back to the idea that it will be hard to leave, but it’s hard to stay too, obviously inherent in this entire question is that it’s painful to stay, it’s painful to go. It’s hard to stay, it’s hard to go. What’s the right kind of hard?
Amanda Doyle:
Right. And I think I’d tell Sophia, listen to the last episode, because where we talked about that research where in confusing relationships where it has a lot of really great stuff, but a lot of really stuff that, that actually those ambivalent relationships can be as bad for us as the ones that are clearly toxic. And so just because the good outweighs the bad doesn’t mean it’s actually a healthful relationship to be in.
Glennon Doyle:
And if an airport is life, and friendship is like the moving sidewalk; it just makes it all a little bit easier. A little bit less effortful, a little bit more enjoyable, a friendship like this, it’s not just not having a moving sidewalk, and walking on the regular ground, it’s like walking backwards on a moving sidewalk. It’s not only not giving you more energy, it’s robbing you of so much energy that you probably do better with just nothing. Sophia, I’m sorry, but I think you already know your answer.
Amanda Doyle:
Yeah. And you’re still a good friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. That’s right. You’re just a good friend to yourself also.
Amanda Doyle:
And to the next lucky boo that gets you.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s right.
Amanda Doyle:
All right. Let’s hear from Meg.
Meg:
Hi Glennon, Abby and Sister, my name’s Meg. During COVID, I’ve lost the friendship of one of my most central people, and it has been by far the hardest breakup of my life. This is someone who I thought would be in my corner forever and ever, I was prepared to show up for her through sick and thin until the end of time, but we had a conflict and her response, which I know was rooted in her own past trauma was to cut off all contact with me. It’s been over a year since our rift, and I still think about her every day. I still run through scripts in my head of things I wanted to say, and never will. I still get lonely, and angry, and really sad, a million ways about it all, but I mostly keep it to myself because grieving a friendship doesn’t really seem as acceptable somehow as grieving a romantic relationship would.
Meg:
With time and therapy, I’ve come to understand that as special as our friendship was, it was rooted in some deeply unhealthy patterns of behavior on both sides. So COVID times have made it clear to me that I’m actually only interested in relationships that are deep, and intimate, and meaningful, but after such heartbreak, going deep with someone feels really risky, and vulnerable, and kind of unsafe. How do I find the courage to look for the kind of deep connections I crave after this friendship heartbreak, and how do I avoid returning to the entrenched patterns, and roles, and habits that led to our end in the first place. Thanks so much in advance for your thoughts take care.
Amanda Doyle:
We had so many questions like Meg’s. It feels like this is a real grief and trauma that so many folks go through in life, and that there’s no cultural legitimizing or template for showing that you’re going through it-
Glennon Doyle:
Or word.
Amanda Doyle:
Exactly.
Glennon Doyle:
We have the word, “Divorce.” We have the word, “Death.” We have words for endings of things. And we don’t even have a word for losing a dear friend.
Amanda Doyle:
I mean, someone that you thought you were going to go through everything together, someone that you’ve spent decades of your life together, and then you don’t even have a way of communicating that through your words. I remember when I got divorced, I remember having this odd sense of gratitude that we had actually been married, so I could say, “I’m going through a divorce right now.” And it’s like, when you say it, people get that that’s a big deal that like this is really bad. And I remember feeling sorry that people who were going through just as many losses as I had, but just happened to be boyfriends, or girlfriends, or engaged-
Glennon Doyle:
Sissy, I have a friend who was so in love with her person, and found that the person was terminally ill, and they got married because she imagined the funeral, and she imagined people coming up to her and not knowing that it was a marriage and that she couldn’t handle the world, the universe, not respecting the loss, the way that people only respect loss when you have a fucking contract.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
But because we don’t have a contract with friends, the universe does not respect the loss of it. I mean, imagine staying at home for a month in your pajamas, if it’s because you divorce, there’s a million shows about it, everybody, that’s okay. We get it. You’re not allowed to stay home in your pajamas in the dark for a month because you lost your best friend, but you should be.
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It’s an ambiguous loss in some ways too, because there isn’t a name, and there isn’t a cultural respect. And if the whole world is, by omission, telling you to get over it, and you haven’t been able to even walk through it because of that, you must feel like you’re going a little crazy through it. And I wonder if also there’s this role of, I feel like culturally, we’re just starting to evolve to the place of in romantic divorces where we are letting go of the trope of there’s a villain, and a hero, we have to demonize each other. There’s also this strange trope in women’s relationships where it’s like an extension of the mean girl situation where I don’t feel like we’ve quite gotten to the place where we can understand that relationships have evolved, and are taking on a new form or going away. And that doesn’t mean that anybody’s a villain in any of it either.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. Because when you think about too, the agreed upon expectations that we have in other sorts of relationships, there’s a better storyline. There’s a better, “You cheated,” there’s like a clear, bad guy, get out of jail free card, but since there’s less rules about friendship, it’s harder to know who broke them, what’s the storyline, what’s the narrative, that’s an all ambiguous loss. It’s lots of times, not a bad guy-good guy situation, it’s the idea that we have that relationships are only worthy if they end successful. If they last for ever like this idea that a marriage is a failure, if it ends. Are we sure about that? Because I have seen so many marriages that we’re very, very life giving then stop being, and so they ended it instead of holding on forever and ever while everybody died inside of it.
Glennon Doyle:
What if friendship is the same way? What if friendship is not only successful if it lasts forever, but what if it comes into your life at a certain time, and carries you across a river, like a canoe? What if fit grows you and helps you heal it? Like what Meg said; she said that looking back on it, she can see some unhealthy patterns. That means she grew.
Amanda Doyle:
Right.
Glennon Doyle:
She wouldn’t be able to see that in retrospect, unless she had grown through that relationship, and through its ending, and now has different eyes to see because of that relationship in both good and bad ways, right? So what if she crossed a river with the canoe of that friendship, and now it’s time to put it down. You don’t carry, it’s like that old story, right? You don’t carry the canoe forever after it’s gotten you from the place you needed to go to this new place. And what if the next relationship she has will be all the more beautiful and healthy because of this one, and what if all of that is a raging success?
Amanda Doyle:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And that goes to her question about, “How do I avoid returning to the same patterns?” I mean, I think, in a way it’s cyclical back to the same thing. I mean, you go through a divorce and you hopefully do the work of really seriously evaluating what got you there? What kept you there? What happened there? And she is working with a therapist, and I think she gives the validity to this breakup and grief, and really interrogating all that happened there at the same level as she would have that been a divorce.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s exactly right.
Amanda Doyle:
Because I think we reveal so much about ourselves in those relationships, and there’s no reason why we just put it under a microscope with the romantic ones.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s so good. Yeah, take it seriously. Right? Gather up every single thing you learned about yourself, and also trust yourself in this new… Because what that relationship already gave you is new eyes to see, right? You will look for different things, and you don’t have to will it, you don’t have to be scared, you will look for different things because you have new eyes after that friendship. You will see things differently, just based on what you became from that relationship. Good luck, Meg.
Amanda Doyle:
Good luck, Meg.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay. Let’s hear from our Pod Squader of the week.
Mackenzie:
Hi Abby, and Glennon and Sister, my name’s Mackenzie. And I actually just ran into you three at LAX, Abby and Glennon, I think you were picking up Sister and some other friends from the airport, and I was the girl on the curb who was awkwardly telling you that I love your podcast, and I love your book, and your soccer and just everything. And I just wanted to call and just thank you guys for being so nice and warm, and Abby was like, “A Pod Squader” when Amanda walked up, and Amanda hugged me and I started crying. Cause I was trying to respect your space. But I also feel like I just didn’t adequately convey how much you three mean to me. I wish I would’ve shown more excitement, but I was also just not trying to bombard you in the middle of LAX pickup. So Sister, thank you for the hug and gosh, today was just like the best day ever. I cannot believe that that happened. I’m so grateful for you guys have a great day. Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
Mackenzie. I totally remember Mackenzie, do you remember-
Abby Wambach:
Me too, completely, yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Abby and I were picking up you and Allison and Dynna for a Pod Squad get together. We were talking about this Pod Squad, and Mackenzie was there. And I forgot to tell you this. Amma recently, a bunch of stuff fell out of her backpack. And there were these little notes in there and I was like, “What is this?” And she was like, “oh, that’s so and so’s mom’s ideas for the next pod.” I mean, it’s the most precious thing. It just makes me, when we talk about friendship and being tethered, so I’m working on my big, corner tethers, right? I’m going to work on these friendships, but I’m telling, having this Pod Squad all over the place, wherever we go, because it’s just like this thing you see in people’s eyes, when they tell you, and it feels like you’re their people. It feels like if anybody lasts long enough to become a Pod Squader in this pod, they are people who have a sense of humor, who are honest, who are vulnerable, who are grappling with the hard things of life, and knowing that those people are everywhere just makes me feel so much less alone, and tethered in a million little tethers to the Earth. So Mackenzie, thanks for being a tether. We love ya.
Amanda Doyle:
I think I just want to also, I feel like this about the Pod Squad. They did this study that said if two people were standing and looking at a hill that it doesn’t seem as steep if you’re standing with a friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. I read that.
Amanda Doyle:
And I just feel like, that’s what we want to be for you, Pod Squader. We just want to be standing at that bottom of the hill and being like, “Yeah, we got this. We can do hard things. This isn’t steep at all. Let’s go, let’s go.”
Glennon Doyle:
Even if it’s a time like this, and the mountain is actually a wall, it’s vertical-
Amanda Doyle:
It’s definitely as steep as it can possibly be. But it doesn’t look that way to us-
Glennon Doyle:
And even you’re delusional y’all. Even if it’s just a delusion, we’re here to tell you that we love you. It’s not as steep as it looks, and together we can do hard things. We’ll see you back here next week. Bye.