Are Your Friendships Draining or Charging You? with Luvvie Ajayi Jones
January 13, 2022
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, we are back. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We are back with Luvvie. And, Luvvie, I just want to jump right in and talk about two things with you, easy, easy topics. Number one is going to be about friendship, and number two is going to be about black women and white women and if they can actually ever really be friends.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, this is my-
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Oh, yes.
Abby Wambach:
… I cannot fucking wait for this conversation.
Glennon Doyle:
So, two easy things. Two easy things. So first of all, whenever we ask a question, okay, can black women and white women be friends, we first have to define what is friends?
Abby Wambach:
Yup.
Glennon Doyle:
Right?
Abby Wambach:
Yup.
Glennon Doyle:
And, Luvvie, we’re going to do an entire episode on friends soon, friendship, because I have felt very, very clueless about friendship my whole life. And I think it’s because I don’t understand it. I don’t understand what the rules are. I don’t understand the structure. You enter into this thing and you’re like, “Okay, let’s be friends.” But that means two completely different things to each person, so you’re always failing because one person has these expectations for friendship that you don’t know, and you have the other… And when you get married, you take vows. You know what everybody’s expecting.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, and you talk about it and you come to an agreement and you share value systems. And so there’s a understanding, an agreement.
Glennon Doyle:
Of the deal here.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. And in friendships-
Glennon Doyle:
With friendship, it’s the wild, wild west. I don’t know what anyone expects of me. It’s better just to end it before it begins, because it’s going to end badly. And also, when does it end? Nobody gives you, “We’re going to be friends for six months.”
Abby Wambach:
We’re now breaking up friends.
Glennon Doyle:
You have to be friends for the rest of your life?
Abby Wambach:
Oh my gosh, this is so funny.
Glennon Doyle:
So, Luvvie, clearly, I’m not the expert on this. I would say that you are an expert on this. When I watch the way that you and your friends take care of each other and love each other and have joy together-
Abby Wambach:
Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
None of this angst I’m describing seems to be overflowing.
Abby Wambach:
Always on yachts, always on yachts.
Glennon Doyle:
No, they’re not. They’re not always on yachts, they’re often in other places.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
We have been on yachts a few times though, I ain’t going to lie.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Abby’s not wrong though, we do love a good yacht.
Abby Wambach:
I have so much yacht jealousy.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
If it’s a nice place, we’re going to be on a yacht.
Glennon Doyle:
But even if you’re just on an IG live, if you and [Boz 00:02:22] are on an IG live, you know I’m always on there. You’ll always be like, “Hi, Glennon.”
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I love it.
Glennon Doyle:
Because I just love watching you talk to each other because the love just shoots out of your eyeballs like Care Bear love.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
It is Care Bear love.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. So talk to us… And you have so much in your books about building a squad too.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And you give us actual ways that we can do that and collect little groups of people who we can do life with. So first of all, remind us of what your definition of a friend is. And then can you just talk to us about friendship and how we do it? Thanks.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I will do my best. So I think a friend is somebody who you do feel responsible for some of their care, but also who you can trust yourself with, trust your truth with, trust your imperfection with. I think friendship is a verb, just like love, just like sisterhood, just like community, and friendship is an action. It doesn’t mean we talk every single day. Sometimes we’ll go a month without speaking. But friendship means that person is another charging station for me. That person’s another charging station for me.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
And I was actually having a conversation with one of my really good friends, [Uniq 00:03:39], the other day and she was reflecting friendship to me. And she was like now more than ever, she understands the importance of that word, friend and how it means we’re all getting older. We’re going to be losing parents soon. Friendship has to show up.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
A friend is not the person who just casually tells you on social media, “Oh my god, I’m so sorry.” Your friend is a person who says, “Have you eaten today?” A friend might be the person being like, “Do you need their obituary written? Do you need me to help you write it?” Actions that are substantive, which is why I’m very careful who I call and consider a friend, because will I show up for you in the moment of crisis? If you are not somebody who I would show up for, I can’t call you a friend.
Glennon Doyle:
Wow. That’s good. It’s a boundary. It’s like the Brene episode, do I want to be accountable for this in the future?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Do I want to be accountable for you?
Glennon Doyle:
For you.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Correct.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Correct. I have to vouch for you. I got to show up for you. So my friends, people know we’re friends, which means my name actually goes with them, right? So it becomes, “Oh, that’s one of Luvvie’s friends,” which actually means literally, even when I’m not in the room, you represent me and I represent you. So who I also call a friend has to be aligned with my values because if that person is not, people go, “That doesn’t match. That’s Luvvie’s friend, but she’s kind a terrible person. That doesn’t match.”
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
That doesn’t match. You can’t, I can’t… No. So I think all of that values, care, love, and of course, sharing joy with each other and serving as a soft place to land for each other. I know I can never fail, truly, in this world because my friends would be my soft place to land even if I fall. They won’t ever let me hit concrete, they’ll catch me right before the moment I do. So it also feels like safety.
Abby Wambach:
I love that.
Glennon Doyle:
Comfort and challenge.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
Comfort and challenge.
Abby Wambach:
And chosen family. I think that, to me, and to any person who has had any kind of childhood struggle, it’s really important the chosen family that you take with you throughout your life. And friends do come and go because there are seasons of friends, when you’re in college and just after college.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Abby Wambach:
Before I got sober friends and now that I’m sober, I have different kinds of friends. And to be able to choose, it’s like we do need to choose wisely. Don’t be friends with somebody just because they live next door to you.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Proximity friendships are convenient. But a lot of times, they don’t have real depth.
Abby Wambach:
Right.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
A lot of my friends, my closest friends don’t live in Chicago. I live in Chicago, you all live in LA, Boz is in LA, Justina’s in D.C. So a lot of my closest friends aren’t even in my city, but I don’t feel less supported, right? I don’t feel less held. And I know that when I need them, they’re a plane ride away. Yeah, friendship, it’s a love story.
Amanda Doyle:
Can you talk about knowing when a friendship needs to be released and how that works? Because where you say some people are ride or die and I’m more ride or surely you understand why I’m done here, that-
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Why we got to die? Why we got to die, fam? I mean, why we got to die?
Amanda Doyle:
Nobody’s dying. We’re not dying.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Nobody needs to die.
Amanda Doyle:
So we’re not asking you to ride or die. So when you hit the surely you understand why I’m done here phase, what does that look like to release a friend with love and how do you know? And how do you know?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So I’ve had friendship losses over the years and actually who I am as a friend today is partly because of some of the friendship losses I’ve had where people have not showed up for me in a way, or they weaponized something I did or said, and I’m like, “Woof.” The type of friend I am, I give you extra grace because I’ve had friends who never gave grace. I give extra benefit of the doubt because you have to think the best of me for us to be in the community. Because when I make mistakes, you have to understand it’s not malicious. Right?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So I am the friend who is like, “I must give you grace. I must give you benefit of the doubt.” I will not project my shit on you because I’m in a bad space. So when it’s time to let a friend go, how you know if you no longer trust yourself with them? If you have to second guess everything you do. Because you’re not sure how they will receive it or how they’ll take it. If you do not trust your feelings with them, your very persona with them, it’s time to let them go because you can no longer lean on them in the way you really need to, nor would you be present for them because you’re going to feel resentful.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So I always know when it’s time to let go of somebody’s when I say, “You’ve either crossed the boundary that I can’t unsee, you broke something that I can’t figure out how to fix it, or, ultimately, I start seeing you as somebody who is not in integrity.” If I can’t vouch for you-
Glennon Doyle:
And do you have a conversation?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Yes, I have a conversation. Well, here’s the thing. I also will let friends know when they do something that hurts me in a way. So I don’t like when people will just pop up and be like, “Oh my god, I’ve been upset for the last two years.” “Oh, god, so you’ve been keeping that to yourself?” I think we should honor each other and ourselves and be truly honest with each other and tell the truth, especially in those hard moments so repairs can happen or not. Give people a chance to repair. And if they don’t repair, that’s a data point that you can be like, “Well, I guess we’re done.” So I also will have conversations along the way. And if we get to a point where I’m like, “Yeah, this person is not hearing, they’re not doing anything different, I really can’t trust them.” Then sometimes I fade, not that I ghost, not that I even have like a dramatic conversation, but I become less available. I become less available.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
And then if they ask me, “Hey, this thing happened,” I’ll tell you or I’ll even say, “Let’s have a conversation.” And it’s in that conversation that I’ll go, “Yeah, see, this feels cruel. This does not feel kind. This does not feel gentle. I can’t do it.” Multiple ways. But I don’t agree with the ghosting where you just like… Some people will block friends on social media, randomly, and that’s how they know that they’re not speaking anymore. Some people would… No, don’t do that-
Abby Wambach:
So mature.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
… be a better person than that. It’s immature. Like have conversations. I’ve had friends come back to me or ex-friends who have tried to argue with me and I go, “I’m not sure what you want from me. We can have a real conversation, but I’m not doing a tit for tat. Let’s have a real conversation, but I’m not doing the back and forth.”
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Sub-posting on Instagram is great for people too and Facebook because adults do that now, social media. I’ve seen people whose friendships have broken up and you can be like, “Oh snap.” Because that person’s posting, “Sometimes friendships are for a season and a reason.” And you’re like, “Oh they must be mad. They must be mad at somebody right now.” I be watching like, “Hmm, take it up with the person. Take it up with the person.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And I think sometimes we don’t end things or we end things wrong because we’re trying to control the narrative in terms of like, I’m the good guy and you’re the bad guy and I have to wait until I can prove that perfectly and until I can explain it in a way that makes it… But that’s not real. Sometimes it’s not you, it’s not me, it’s the energy between us. It’s the moment. I don’t have to be-
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
It’s situations.
Glennon Doyle:
… it’s just not-
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
It’s situations.
Glennon Doyle:
… yeah, it’s just not working. You can release each other in a way that’s not-
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
And I think you can release each other without even having hard feelings.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Right?
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
You don’t have to be like, “Oh I hate that bitch. No, we’re not friends no more.” You can just be like, “No, we drifted apart.” And that’s fine. The person, you see them out in public, say hi. Every friendship breakup doesn’t have to be this dramatic bomb that just went off. And all of a sudden, this person’s… I hate them so much, they’re horrific. No. Sometimes people will drift apart and that’s natural. Like we’re adults, stuff happens. But I think all through it, try as much as you can to maintain your integrity.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And I love your advice of you don’t always have to decide whether or not you like the other person or if they’re worthy or if they’re honest or whatever, but you do have to decide if you like yourself around that person. And if you don’t like yourself and trust yourself and feel calm and safe, then that’s enough information.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Yeah. It’s enough information.
Glennon Doyle:
There’s so many people in the world. We don’t have to stay, ride or die with the wrong ones.
Abby Wambach:
Yup.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Are you in love with your friends? If you’re not, why are they your friends? Like, in love where you’re just like, “Oh, my god.” Like the Care Bear stare. Oh, my god. I Care Bear stare all my friends because I just think y’all are amazing. Are you in love with the person who is your friend, who you’re sharing space and energy with, who you’re going on vacations with sometimes, who you’re watching on Zoom or WhatsApp? Be in love with the people around you.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, do you feel safe enough to receive love, too, from your friends? One of my barometers of like real friendship is will I let them love me? Do I receive the kind of gifts or love that they want to bring me? Do they have something to offer me that I actually will truly deeply receive?
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. Are they a charging station?
Glennon Doyle:
I’m sure you get this. Sometimes when you do the work that we do, you get the feeling that when you get together with people, they just want you to give them a speech. Like I’m not freaking like this. I’m not in real life wanting to do this all the time. I’m the best at this in public. I always feel sometimes nervous to meet people in real life because I’m like, “They’re going to be disappointed.”
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Yeah. People meet and be like, “Oh my god, Luvvie’s funny acting. I met her, she was not warm.” And I’m just like, “Did you think I was going to see you and tackle you in a hug?” Like what do you think I was going to be?
Amanda Doyle:
Also, note to everyone. If you see Luvvie, do not hug her. That’s a boundary.
Glennon Doyle:
No, she doesn’t like hugs.
Amanda Doyle:
She doesn’t like hugs from everybody.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I only like hugs from my friends.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, samesies.
Amanda Doyle:
Yes. Yes.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
My friends and people who I know. I don’t want strangers to hug me, but friends, that’s what I mean by, in love.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I want to hug my friends. I want to hug my family members. I want to hug acquaintances and people who I’m like, “Yes.” But like that’s a boundary that does not exist for the rest of the world, and that’s okay.
Glennon Doyle:
Right.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
And my friends know, where do you find Luvvie? On her couch. So we’ll have many nights just sitting on the couch, doing nothing interesting. Just randomly being there, eating random snacks and talking about random shenanigans.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
That is what friendship is. Not just the deep moments, but like the super mundane, not even worth talking about moments.
Glennon Doyle:
That’s good.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Those are also, for me, actually really important. So you see us… Funny, people see me and Boz and the last vacation we were just on together, because one of our mutual friends turned 60 and it was super swaggy, super, duper swaggy. That is like 1% of the time me and Boz see each other. Other times we are in our auntie robes and bonnets, just sitting on her couch, eating random stews, just doing nothing of note and talking about nothing that’s important.
Glennon Doyle:
It’s the best.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
And I think those are the best moments, right? Those are the best times. And I think my friends have rewired my brain. My friends have rewired my brain with their generosity. I go to therapy and I say, “Every single time somebody does something generous for me, something shifts in my head that says, ‘Okay, you can receive that. You can actually be a recipient of somebody’s love in that way.'” And I tell them every time, I was like, “Your friendship rewires my brain.”
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, so we need to jump into some Pod Squad questions. But before we do that, I want to ask you a real simple question that I feel like will have a real simple answer. Can black women and white women really be friends?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Yes, they can, if the white woman knows how to be in community. Here’s the thing about black sisterhood, black women’s sisterhood that’s really specific and important. Our sisterhoods are our lifelines. Like, lifelines. From the time we are born, black women cleave onto each other. It’s a culture, no matter, around the diaspora, whether you are in Nigeria, in Barbados, whether you are in the United States, black women, from the moment we come out, other black women have our hearts. So we actually come out the gate in deep community with each other.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
We lean on… Our relationships with our mothers are very specific. How our mothers raise us is like as tiny versions of themselves. But there’s this connection that’s kind of unspeakable. And then we start grade school and then we become best friends with the person sitting next to us. And that person ends up being our friend and we’re 45 and we’re like, “Oh my God, we’ve been friends since we were like three.” I actually have a friend who I’ve been friends with since I was three.
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I reconnected with her on Facebook because I lost track of her when we moved to the US, but ended up reconnecting. From the time we were born, we learned that we have each other, if nobody else. So then our friendships are deep. We don’t just, “Oh, hey, that’s my girl.” No. Like, “I’m coming over to your house so we can just randomly just cry,” because you had a rough day, type thing. Or our friends will end up becoming daughters to our moms. Boz’s mom was the officiating for my wedding because she knows me and Carnell so much. Like that is literally my second mom.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So our friendships, we’ve had to do it from the… as a survival tool. Because if we don’t lean on each other, the world would’ve destroyed us by now. Black women have saved each other over and over again, and we are each other’s breaths. So our friendships mean something different.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Now, when we get into friendships with white women, who I’m not sure have the same level of depth to the friendships because you haven’t had to for survival, we will approach it with the full heart and full body, which, for you, might feel weird because you’re like, “Man.” But that’s how we operate. So for you to be our friend, you also have to approach us with full heart and full body, full vulnerability. Like we need you to show up for us in the way we would expect our girlfriends to show up for us. But because of so much, the chasms between white and black, because of the hierarchies that all these systems of oppression have put in place, it’s put us against each other.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So when a black woman and white woman can be in friendship together, it can be a revolution because it’s actually crossing all sorts of societal, cultural lines that were put in place to lock us away from each other.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right. Oof.
Glennon Doyle:
I have nothing to add to that. That was incredible, Luvvie, thank you so much. Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I mean, do you have any follow-up questions?
Glennon Doyle:
No, I feel like when I have entered the beginnings of friendships with black women, I feel something different. I feel that I am tiptoeing on more being expected of me than is expected of me in my relationships with white women.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Correct.
Glennon Doyle:
And that is so thrilling, and what I’ve always wanted, and also terrifying because I am used to not much being expected of me in friendships.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Ooh, that’s a really good vulnerability of putting it in that way. And I think, man, black women being in relationship with white women, which Share the Mic Now was an exercise… We haven’t really talked about… I don’t think we’ve processed how special Share the Mic Now was. But I do realize we did this major world-changing thing and ran past it and just moved on. But I have to say that the things that people have reflected to me about Share the Mic Now is those pairings, how we matched a black woman with a white woman, took over her account, it’s been a year and a half and some people are like deep friends now because of it.
Abby Wambach:
Completely.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Like Busy and Cari they’ve been like FaceTiming all the time.
Glennon Doyle:
Tarana and Yaba and I and Abby and I-
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Y’all have your own mini squad.
Glennon Doyle:
… we’re closest friends now.
Abby Wambach:
Yup.
Glennon Doyle:
I mean, we… Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
And we’re so grateful.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
When I asked Tarana to be a part of Share the Mic Now, Tarana said, “You know I’m going to say yes because it’s you. I have only two people who I am requesting.” And one of them was you. And I said, “Say less.” I was like, “That’s perfect.” You actually wanted y’all to know each other already. So when that happened and we were pairing and we put Yaba with… I actually think we didn’t even think about it in that way that we were pairing Yaba with Abby and you’re best friends. But it just worked.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
But the beauty of what you’ve been able to create, literally, I think is a revolution. That is a beautiful part of the human experience that we can always find common ground and we can always find depth. We can always go deeper. We can always do the work to build and cultivate beautiful relationships with people who we might not have met if this was 1963. And now you guys are super close friends. It’s something I’m really proud of that we did. Share the Mic Now-
Abby Wambach:
Thank you.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
… changed the game in a lot of ways. But it was really about that friendship of like community. What does it look like for us to actually break the wall down and for people to actually talk and love each other and show up for each other? And, honestly, going in, I think it’s a challenge that you rise up to. It’s that friendship challenge, you’ve risen up to it for me, you have showed up for me when I call. You say, “How can we push this thing forward?” I remember when Professional Troublemaker was coming out, you said, “Okay, what do we need to do to make this book fly?” And you and Amanda got on a call with my team for an hour just like downloading information and just being like, “We got you.” Every one of those minutes was another minute where it solidified why I consider you one of my charging stations.
Abby Wambach:
And Share the Mic Now that whole endeavor, I know it changed y’all’s relationship, made y’all closer. And also for me, because of Yaba and Tarana, it’s completely changed my life.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah.
Abby Wambach:
I didn’t know how important that was going to be to be able to establish those kinds of true bonds with people. And by the way, it’s taken time. It’s not something that was like that. We have monthly committed to getting on calls with them and to talk through life. It’s just been amazing.
Glennon Doyle:
Well, because it’s just I feel like I understood with those two, I felt like okay, this is some sort of sacred ground shit that I’m not used to, in terms of friendship.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Glennon Doyle:
And I think I understood what you said before, Luvvie-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
… that if this is something we’re going into, this is something that I’m going to promise to myself that I want to take care of these human beings forever. And I want to let them take care of me. And that’s not something I’m used to in a friendship.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, totally.
Glennon Doyle:
At all. It does have to do with white culture.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
But it’s also because for a lot of people who are black women who have navigated this world, we have stories of times when white women have undermined us, got us in trouble, got us fired, got us punished for something. So we’re also now fighting against what has happened to us in the past-
Abby Wambach:
Wow.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
… from white women. So there’s a lot of you will have to over prove your friendship to us because in the past we haven’t seen sisterhood from white women at all. And I think about when Hillary lost the presidency and I wrote a piece about it, and I said, “What happened is white women didn’t vote for Hillary because white women didn’t trust themselves to lead, let alone her to lead.” And that permeates everything. It permeates how the friendships happen. It permeates how the coworkers stab themselves in the back. It permeates a lot of things. So we are fighting against that.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So when we see white women show up, it’s the exception, which is why it’s important that you keep showing up. Because even that is modeling something that is not always the case. It is a beautiful thing. And I always tell people Glennon’s a real one. Glennon’s a real one. They know. There’s very few I’ve been vouching for. Glennon and Abby, I vouch for because y’all actually show up. Y’all have the tough conversations. Y’all are not afraid of feedback. You’re not fragile. You’re not somebody like, “Oh, my god, my feelings are so hurt. She told me… Oh, god.” You don’t do any of that.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
You’re a grown up who is here for accountability, who’s here for growth, who is here for laughter because we be on shenanigans. You’re honest. That’s all we’re asking for. Friendship requires honesty, accountability, action. If I say like, “Hey, Glennon, I really need you.” I know I would get a response. Hey, I have a meeting, I’ll call you back in 30 minutes… No problem. Friendship is simple, but we complicate it and then we’re like, “Oh, my god, I don’t know what…” Just be the friend that you would like to have, and you would be a good friend.
Glennon Doyle:
And, Luvvie, it’s because what you just said white women didn’t vote for Hillary because we don’t trust ourselves to lead and whatever. When we don’t enter friendships is because we don’t trust ourselves to be a friend. You trust yourself, you know you can… But when I entered that friendship with Yaba and Tarana, I’m like, “Can I do this? Can I show up? Can I be a good person for a long time? Can I take feedback? Can I…” It’s a self… You have to trust yourself to enter a friendship that means something to you.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
My therapist says, “When you have trust issues, when you don’t trust others it’s ultimately because you don’t trust yourself.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Once you trust yourself more, you’ll start trusting other people. She uses it as a challenge to me back to the control thing. She was like, “When you’re afraid of losing control it’s because you don’t trust yourself so you’re not trusting other people.” So when friendship comes into play, to your point, they’re not trusting themselves to be good friends.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. And to get themselves out if they need to. I mean, I think that’s a part of trust. When you’re little, you have control over nothing so you have to put up all these boundaries just to protect yourself. But when you’re older, you have more control, you can leave things if they get bad. You can trust yourself no, I’ll see that red flag if it’s down the road, I don’t have to protect myself in case there’s any red flags. I can enter into this relationship knowing that I can trust myself to get myself out if I need to.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
And the other part about friendships between black women and white women is white women got to know we going to come to you with base. Like, “Listen, we’re not doing compliment sandwiches all the time.” If I’m talking like this, that doesn’t mean I’m upset. That’s just how I talk. So when people go, “Oh my god, I felt attacked because she got really excited.” You can’t be friends with that person. So you’re going to have to just drop some fragility, just drop some of those fragility, just leave it behind otherwise you can’t be genuine friends. You will stay far acquaintances. We’ll say, “What’s up?” In streets and be like, “Oh, it’s good to see you.” But you will not be in our sacred spaces.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Glennon Doyle:
I love you.
Glennon Doyle:
Okay, let’s hear from Alex. Alex has a question for Luvvie.
Alex:
My name is Alex. Right now, where I’m at in life, I know the things that I’m doing are not right. Right? The job that I’m in is not the right job. The place that I’m living is not the right place. They’re not good for me, but I have to wait until I can make the next step, until I can quit my job, until I can go to moving somewhere else and there has to be some planning that goes into that. So my question is, what do you do when you know you’re in the wrong situation and you know you need to change it, but you can’t change it yet? How do you live in that space?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So what do you know when you know you’re in the wrong situation and you know you can’t change it yet? How do you live in that space? I think, start with your plan. I think when you are in a position that’s not ideal, plan what the ideal situation is. Write it down, have the vision of what this ideal life that you want is, and then what is also realistic for right now in six months. Create the plan towards that because you’ll keep your eyes on the prize, right? If you’re just like in the black hole and you’re just like, “There’s no hope and I’m just going to have to sit in this for a minute,” I think it will be hard to get out of bed.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So I just think, start the plan, write the vision, make it plain and read it, even every single day as a way to encourage you because you know that at some point you’ll be on the other side of what this situation is.
Amanda Doyle:
Let’s go to this one because I read one of your auntie posts the other day and it made me think of you.
Speaker 6:
So my question is, this is a big struggle of mine. I have teenagers at home and I struggle with some of their clothing choices. Now, I am all about raising cheetahs so we’re all about that. Right? And for them to be whatever kind of strong person they want to be, I think that is amazing. So even as a 44-year-old woman, I like to sometimes dress sexy and with lots of makeup, and then other times I like to just be in scraggly clothes with hat and no makeup and just be me. So I like to do both.
Speaker 6:
So what I’m struggling with, as a mom of teenagers, is some of these outfits that they want to wear are gosh, just a little bit more revealing than I would like them to wear, as their mother. So as a cheetah mother, I really struggle with okay, they need to have their own identity. And I don’t want to attach shame or body issues or kind of a false morality with them regarding what they wear, but I just wish there was more fabric. I just wish that there wasn’t so much skin. So I need help with some guidance on what is the right thing to do with teenagers and their clothing. So, please help.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Oh, my god.
Abby Wambach:
Please help us.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
It’s hysterical. Okay, so my niece stayed with me over the holidays and every day she would walk into the kitchen with a midriff on, and every time I’d be like, “Where’s the rest of your shirt? It is wintertime in Chicago, are you not cold?” And she’s like, “Auntie, I am not cold at all, my jacket is heavy. But is my outfit giving?” And I’m like, “Giving what?” Because it’s giving half outfit. Like, “What are we doing?” And I just talked about it because it was cold. Like, “[Sith 00:33:02], are you paying full price for these half shirts, because I have questions? I have questions. Are you paying full price for zero fabric?” Economically, it just makes no sense.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
So, parent, I don’t think I’m helpful. I’m a fan of just roasting them. I just like making fun of them. And it’s not about making fun of their body. It’s just making fun of the fact that the shirt is so little, that they’re paying all this money for so little fabric that they’re being cheated out of good money and coins. So, yeah, every day it was my routine to roast my niece and me and Carnell would literally make fun of her for about 15 minutes. Just talking about like, “Girl, do you need a full shirt? Do any of your shirts come down?” And she’ll be like, “Y’all just don’t understand. This shirt is giving everything.” I’m like, “Girl, it’s giving half. Giving half.” So I’m a fan of making fun of them. I feel like kids, yes, they can get it.
Glennon Doyle:
I love it. That’s just the perfect answer. Okay, let’s hear from Rosie.
Rosie:
This is Rosie and I’m calling to ask because I am probably going to be moving in with my girlfriend and this is the first time I’ll be moving in with a significant other. What conversations do you wish you had before moving in with somebody? Whatever advice you’ve got, I’d love to hear it. Like I said, this is a first for me. Thank you for all you do on We Can Do Hard Things. Bye.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
A hard thing is cohabitating with another full-grown human being. That’s a hard-
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Nobody talks about that part. Nobody talks about that you’re on a permanent sleepover with somebody who is different from you and got different habits and sometimes they’re junkier and sometimes they’re cleaner and you’re like, “The hamper’s right there. You can just put that right in there. Okay.” Things you have to talk about, one, what you going to help with around the house? Who’s doing what chores? This is important.
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
If you don’t like washing dishes, fine. Do you like washing dishes? Neither one of us like washing dishes. Well, I guess we need a dishwasher. Okay. Okay, whomst is doing what? We got to know these things. These are important things because the fights you will have when moving in with a partner are stupid. They’ll be like, “Why didn’t you wash the dishes in the sink?” You know I don’t like washing those dishes.” “But, I mean, you could have just…” These are logistical fights.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Ask all the questions. “Do you like doing laundry? Do you like folding?” “Well, I don’t like folding. You like folding? Great. I’m going to do laundry, you fold.” Cool, great. It’s not sexy. It’s not sexy. It is very much like logical, grown-up, credit-score type stuff.
Abby Wambach:
Yes. I mean, listen, one thing that Glen and I, what do you least love to do? Like what do you hate to do? And so, she gives me her list and then… And it changes, by the way. As you get older things change because you see her… Sometimes I see her doing a job I’m like, “That looks way easier than the one that I’m doing.” So maybe in a few years I’ll amend my list.
Glennon Doyle:
I also think we should ask each other like, “Hey, how do you feel about watching TikToks and Instagram reels without headphones?”
Abby Wambach:
Ooh, this has got sidetracked real quick.
Glennon Doyle:
What is your stance on that?
Abby Wambach:
We just like-
Glennon Doyle:
Do you find that appropriate or do you find that unbelievably jarring and rude?
Abby Wambach:
Or, maybe those of us who do watch them, sometimes, don’t actually call thou out when you also listen to videos.
Glennon Doyle:
All right, so double standards, we could talk about that.
Abby Wambach:
That’s-
Glennon Doyle:
Are you comfortable with double standards? That’s a great question to ask.
Abby Wambach:
I don’t know why we sidetracked this way, but here we are.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I might be the one who might not always have the headphones and is cackling-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
… at a video.
Abby Wambach:
Fucking shit’s funny.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
And then Carnell looks over and goes, “I’m trying to sleep.” And I’m like, “My bad, my bad.”
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Sorry.
Abby Wambach:
I know.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
You got this, my bad. Yes.
Glennon Doyle:
Luvvie, can, sometime, you come back just to answer our people’s questions.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah, that would be so funny.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Oh, my god, that would be so fun. I would love to just do an episode that’s just like answering your audience’s questions and giving them the… You know what, we could even have it be the opposite advice they should be hearing.
Abby Wambach:
Yeah.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Like make fun of your friends for wearing crop tops. I’m the auntie who’s telling you to make fun of the kids for wearing crop tops, so I don’t know how much you want to take my advice.
Glennon Doyle:
No, we could call it We Can Do Fun Things, because those are fun answers.
Abby Wambach:
That’s good.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Yes, fun answers.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
But I’ll give you the hard answers, the fun answers to crop tops.
Abby Wambach:
It’s actually a very good idea.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
If you want more jokes. I love y’all.
Abby Wambach:
Thank you for being with us, we adore you. Tell us real quick where we can find you, everywhere. How we can start hearing you on a daily basis, like I do?
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Yes. Okay, so you can follow me on social media. I am @luvvie everywhere. L-U-V-V-I-E, there’s only one. Any others are counterfeits. How you can support my work, you can listen to my podcast Professional Troublemaker. I have a great episode with Glennon and one with Abby-
Abby Wambach:
That’s right.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
… Okay, two. And buy my books.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, it’s so good.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I really infuse my heart into my books. So I have I’m Judging You, which is my first one. Professional Troublemaker: The Fear-Fighter Manual, which is my second. And then available for preorder now is Rising Troublemaker: The Fear-Fighter Manual for Teens. So you can get these everywhere books are sold. So I really would love for you to support me in these ways. Follow me on social media, listen to my podcast, buy my books.
Glennon Doyle:
Yes, and I encourage you do all of those things-
Abby Wambach:
Yes, we love you.
Glennon Doyle:
… which is one of the reasons… I don’t know, I just think you make me better and funnier and wiser and I adore you. Thanks for being here all of you.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
I love you all.
Glennon Doyle:
Go get your flight.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones:
Thank you so much. And I’m going to say this before I leave. Thank you for also being somebody who’s rewiring my brain, Glennon. Abby, you also. And, Amanda, you sent me a message the other day that made me cry. I am deeply grateful for your friendship, to consider you three of my charging stations. Okay. And thank you for always seeing me and showing up for me. It really, really, really, really impacts the way I show up in the world, knowing that I have soft places to land.
Glennon Doyle:
Forever.
Amanda Doyle:
We are now going to do the Pod Squad of the week. If you listened to episode 45 that was the Runners & Cheerers where Abby and Glennon and Shalane Flanagan talked about Abby’s amazing experience at the New York City marathon, then you’ll recognize what’s going on here. The woman named Steph and she called in when she was running her first half marathon in San Francisco. She got to the bottom of the last hill and she was defeated and she looks over and she sees a woman holding a sign that said You Can Do Hard Things. And the hard was written in cheetah print. And she said that that person who was holding that sign solidarity, pushed her to finish the race. And so she called in because it meant so much to her, and her hope was since the sign said You Can Do Hard Things that this person was also someone who listened to the podcast and that maybe she’d be able to hear it and know what that had meant to Steph.
Amanda Doyle:
She did hear the message and the sign holder’s name is Cassidy and she wrote to us, and she called into the pod, she was so excited, she did both. She wrote, “I want so much for Steph to know that I heard her on the podcast and how much the effort she went through to try and let me know that that sign and my presence helped her on that race day means to me.”
Amanda Doyle:
She said, “Steph, I saw you that day and I did what I could to lift you up. And I just heard, as you did, what you could, to lift me up, even though you didn’t know I needed it, or if I would ever hear your kind words. I’m speechless at this example of wild and crazy universal connectedness and deeply grateful for how these stars have aligned. Clearly we are teammates for life and I’ve never loved my team more. So thank you, Steph and thank you, Amanda, Glennon and Abby for showing up, saying all the things, providing a platform for others to do the same and for all being authentically, unapologetically and courageously, you. Keep running, keep cheering and keep doing hard things.”
Amanda Doyle:
So we get to hear from Cassidy too. So to Steph, and to all the cheerers and all the runners and everyone who is both today, here is Steph’s sign holder, Cassidy.
Cassidy:
Hi, everybody. My name is Cassidy. Here’s the thing. I’m a part of a team, a big-ass team of people, a few that I know, but mostly a whole lot I don’t know. But we are all on the same team because we do the hard thing that is running. So on that beautiful race morning, instead of lacing up my shoes, I poured everything I would have given to my run into rooting my teammates on. I shouted out their names and words of encouragement until my voice was raw and my arms were trembling from holding my sign so high over my head. Like Shalane said in the podcast, “It is important to put your best self out there because you just never know.” And I put my best, cheerleader self out there that day.
Abby Wambach:
Oh, my gosh. If you could have told me two and a half years ago when I started training for that freaking marathon that any of this could have been possible… Not only like the podcast, but like the connective tissue that is in the running community that can happen, it’s just… Cassidy, thank you. I just love this story so much. It’s just such a good feel-good.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah, and it’s such a good example of how connected we are when we don’t even know. We don’t even know… She’s right, we don’t even know. We show up and we don’t even know that we’re helping somebody else through their day. It’s so beautiful. And it’s like a good example also of sometime the hard thing and the good thing is the showing up for someone else doing their hard thing. And that gift of being an encouraging person, being somebody who loves cheering other people on. Oh my god, what a gift.
Abby Wambach:
There’s no greater fulfillment, I feel, in terms of feeling like you are on a team with a bunch of strangers.
Glennon Doyle:
Yeah. That’s what this podcast feels to me.
Amanda Doyle:
And how about Steph? The love and genuineness of being like, “I just really want that person, on that day, who is holding that sign, who meant so much to me, to know it.”
Glennon Doyle:
Yes. And then she didn’t just wish for that, she made it happen by calling in, by doing the thing. Thank you to Steph, thank you to Cassidy, thank you to all of you. Our Pod Squad, who every freaking week just makes us feel so loved and connected. Once again, we just love doing life with you.
Glennon Doyle:
So until we meet again, which will be in just a few short days, don’t forget the we part of that We Can Do Hard Things because it’s really the most important word in that whole, damn sentence. Right? We love you. See you back here soon. Bye.
Glennon Doyle:
We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence13 studios. Be sure to rate, review and follow the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn’t, don’t worry about it, it’s fine.