Silent Sex Queen: Why aren’t we talking about sex more?

August 3, 2021

Glennon Doyle:

Hi, everybody. You are in for a… well, I was going to say a treat, but I don’t know, you’re in for an experience today and the experience is going to be that you are going to listen to my sister Amanda, Abby, and I talk about sex. Our hard thing today that we’re discussing is sex and what I want you to know is that we’re feeling really vulnerable about this episode. It was a hard episode for us to do, but a really important one I think. I absolutely loved this conversation. I hope you do too. Let’s go.

Abby Wambach:

Hi, you guys.

Amanda Doyle:

Hello.

GD:

Here we are to talk about sex, okay? I just noticed that I forgot to put on deodorant this morning and I just feel like this is the worst possible day to not put on deodorant because I’m already sweating. This topic is a little sweaty for me. How are you all feeling as we begin this what is sure to be an incredibly enlightening discussion about sex?

AW:

Well, I just ask sister how she feels about… Amanda, how she feels about becoming a sex podcast star.

GD:

How do you feel, sister?

AD:

I feel like this is as close as I’m ever going to come to being a sex star.

GD:

Yes.

AD:

I feel like I am here. I literally have a clipboard. I’m going to be taking a lot of notes. I feel like that I’m coming with a student’s mind is what I’m saying to you.

GD:

Yes, but it’s so sister to bring a clipboard to sex. Do you actually bring a clipboard to sex because it feels like something you would do?

AW:

Actually, that’s important. That’s like really… Glennon, how are you approaching this conversation because I’m just like I’m right here.

GD:

Yeah, you’re right.

AW:

I got nothing.

GD:

Well, I’m praying, I’m breathing deeply.

AW:

And sister has a clipboard. Okay. That’s very indicative of our personalities I think.

GD:

I’m in surrender mode.

AD:

Yeah.

GD:

And I’m in service mode because this is not easy for me to talk about sex and it’s not… but so many people, so much of the pod squad asked us to do an episode about sex, so here we are. And it feels important because it’s something that’s such a huge part of all of our lives in one way or another.

AD:

Yes.

GD:

And the whole world gets to talk about it. Everywhere you look there’s some company capitalizing off of women’s bodies and sex and then the women ourselves, we find ourselves feeling very alone I think because we don’t talk about it enough with each other. So here we are. Abby’s actually recording in a closet. I am in a basement bathroom. I’m not sure what that says about me, but here we go, ready or not.

AD:

We’re doing it. That’s funny that you say that it’s really hard for you to talk about because I feel like you’ve probably written 200 pages of books about it. What part is hard for you and can you take us back to… When you told me we were doing this episode, I was thinking about the early days of sex, like the origin story of sex for me and how that informed everything. So if it’s cool with you, we should go back there I think because I think a lot of that has informed how we feel now.

GD:

Yeah.

AW:

Might I just interrupt, I’m just going to have a big old ill about what comes next. Go ahead, honey.

AD:

It is weird.

GD:

Right. I know, and so, we’ve been talking so much this week in preparation for this and we’ve been negotiating like lovingly… What is okay to talk about? What is not okay to talk about? What is just ours? What can we share? What can you stand me saying about my past and vice versa?

AW:

Nothing, but I’m being really brave and mature.

GD:

I know, such a grownup. Well, I… you say yes, you have written so many pages about sex. And I would say that I’m always writing about what I don’t understand but desperately want to. That’s basically all that I write. Most of my early writing in Carry On, Warrior and Love Warrior was about what is this sex situation and why don’t I grasp it? I just have never in my life felt how I thought I was supposed to feel about sex when I looked at the world and how other people were talking about how they felt about sex.

The first time I had sex or sex, what the world calls sex, I was in, I think my sophomore year of high school. I was dating a senior boy. He was a bit of a slut I guess you call them like he had sex with a lot of people. So I knew I was going to be expected to have sex with him. One day after school, we had sex and I remember just laying there and being like, “This is it?” I remember looking around to the bedroom, looking at posters, trying to read. This is… just reading every poster, reading every… just reading, reading, get me out of this world and experience and let me read is basically my life mantra, so that’s what I remember from that moment. And then it being over and being like, okay, I guess that was nothingness, nothingness, no feeling, no anything. And then I remember over time, we would have sex and after school or whenever, but his parents were always home so we would have sex in the basement laundry room on a cement floor.

AW:

Oh my gosh. Sexy.

GD:

Yeah. And that was it. That was the whole thing. And so, what I can tell you about my relationship from sex from that moment and on, well, until I met Abby, was that I always felt like sex was something that I had to do to make the boy or man I was with happy, satisfied. It was like this maintenance thing. If you want to have a car and you want the car to get you around and function the way it’s supposed to, you have to have an oil change every once in a while or it will break down. That’s how I felt about sex. It was this thing that I had to do to keep a relationship flowing and to keep the guy happy, but I always felt like it was very impersonal to me. I could have been anyone like I was a scratching post for a cat, that I was just like this thing being used as a means to an end. So good times. Anyone else have a better story about sex?

AD:

I feel like it’s funny because I feel like I talked to a lot of people who kind of have regrets about having sex with too many people or feeling like they were kind of giving themselves away to too many folks. It seems maybe you might be describing that you weren’t getting any value out of that exchange, but it seems in all of the contexts, it’s this idea of exchange of value as if sex is this currency and we are exchanging things for it so you were bartering this idea of keeping them around, this is something you had to do.

For me, I feel like I had the exact same paradigm, except for my reaction to that value structure was the opposite. And it even comes through in the way we talk about sex. “Save yourself for marriage,” right? There is this account that you are either saving or spending.

GD:

Give it up. Yes, give it up.

AD:

Don’t give it up. You’re saving it or you’re spending it. And for me, I feel like my regret when I look back is I should have had more sex.

GD:

That’s awesome.

AD:

I mean, like when I think about it, if I hadn’t… I placed like as if I was spending myself and losing my value. If I didn’t have sex with people, I got to preserve, a, I wouldn’t be able to… I super remember in seventh or eighth grade hanging out with this group of guys, they were talking about this girl that one of them had made out with. And she had, they were talking about she had hair on her nipples. Okay? Like on her breasts.

GD:

Which, don’t we all have that?

AD:

A hundred percent. Well, same.

GD:

Okay.

AW:

Yes.

AD:

I’m the hairiest mammal in the history of-

GD:

Same. I’m like a freaking Neanderthal or whatever those… like the chin. Abby walks over and pulls chin hairs out.

AW:

That’s what a good partner does, come on. If you can’t see it, then somebody’s got to be able to have…

GD:

Okay. Sorry, sister, nipple hairs.

AD:

No, it’s true.

GD:

Nipple hairs.

AD:

Well, so yes, if you are like us, you have that, but I remember being so mortified and thinking, “Oh, I get it. If you spend yourself in that situation, you are now just exchanged on the market. Everyone gets to say whatever they want about you, that’s what…” And then also-

GD:

Like you’re stock, like a bunch of guys talking about the value of this particular-

AD:

Yes.

GD:

… stock that’s been traded.

AD:

Yes.

GD:

And you can do damage to it by what you say to your buddies.

AD:

Yes. Correct. And if you withhold it, then it’s like that supply and demand situation where it’s like the higher value you are. And so, I, as a result of that, I kind of had this idea of not… that I could make myself invulnerable and keep my value high by not doing that. And I look back and I just think that sucks because there were people that I actually loved that I didn’t have sex with.

I mean, loved in like the senior year of high school way, and I think like, well, that’s a damn shame. I also think this. This idea of what we think about we’re supposed to like when we get married in our relationships with our partners have this like be Picassos at sex, like figuring out all the things with doing it. And then we’re also supposed to have these experiences of using our paintbrushes a couple times before that. And how the hell is that supposed to happen? I don’t. I think I could have gotten a lot of nice practice with some safe people.

GD:

Yeah, and I wasn’t even a paintbrush. I was just a canvas.

AW:

Yeah.

AD:

Yeah, sure.

AW:

But I think what’s interesting is you guys are both talking about, I think it’s hilarious that we can bring in economics and the metaphor of finance to sex, commodities, women, what our bodies are worth and you both kind of chose different paths, but I think it’s really interesting. It’s like the grass sometimes looks greener on the other side, but it’s not always the case. I mean, sister, I think it’s so interesting that you wish you had more sex and Glennon, do you wish you had less sex?

GD:

Okay. No, but I swear to you that I don’t think I can answer this question in front of you. I think, I mean, no, I do not ever.

AW:

Let me ask you this and we’ll get into the…

GD:

Okay.

AW:

And you can not answer if you feel uncomfortable. Do you wish you had been with women before me?

GD:

Okay. I’m not going to say I wish I had been… I’m sweating so freaking much right now. First of all, I want to say that I-

AW:

I love you and whatever you answer.

GD:

… whatever happens in this podcast, I don’t want it to be used it against me later.

AD:

Stays in the podcast.

AW:

Okay, fine.

AD:

Maybe we should phrase it like this. Do you wish your paint brush had been able to practice making beautiful art?

GD:

Yes, here’s the deal. I think I would have perhaps hated sex less if I were not having sex with completely the wrong gender my entire life.

AW:

That’s right. I mean, that is right. That is completely right.

GD:

But I also think that while my situation might be, I mean the first time… While it might be a little unusual in some ways because of my later in life lesbian experience, I also think it’s sort of universal in lots of ways like when I talk to my friends who are not gay, a lot of them have the exact same situation and the exact same feelings that I do of feeling kind of used during sex, of feeling like the object during sex, not the subject, of feeling like a scratching post, of it feeling impersonal.

The first time that I saw you, Abby, and I think of it for a long time, I thought of it as love at first sight, but like, what the hell does that mean? That’s kind of like weird and I think what I really felt was true desire for the first time, right? I wouldn’t have not known how to put that into words at the time, but I felt like holy shit, I felt magnetized, I felt lit up inside, I felt tingly in certain places, I felt very… like what is happening? And of course, to me, that felt like a mystical experience because I hadn’t had that before, right?

So, after having felt lit up for the first time, feeling desire, feeling alive, having on top of that, struggled with sex for so long, I started putting all of this together, right? and as you know, or is in Untamed, I sat down with a long-time trusted therapist that had been Craig and I’s marriage therapist for a very long time, so knew all of the struggle. And I sat down and I basically burst into tears. And I said, “Here’s the deal, I feel so dead during sex. I feel used every time. I feel like I’m just abandoning myself. I feel rage.” This after all the infidelity. “I feel angry during sex, I feel… and now, I’m having this experience of feeling desire for this woman.” And I’m wondering if it’s all just starting to make sense.

I’m wondering if it’s all just starting to make sense. And she looked at me and said, “Okay, all of these feelings none of this is real.” Was the first thing she said, none of this is real. And I said, “Wait, but are you sure? And if I can’t be with this other person then I know that at least I can never have sex with my husband again.” And she said, “Okay, well, have you considered giving blow jobs? A lot of women consider blow jobs to be less intimate. So maybe you could handle that.”

AW:

I mean this person needs to be fired from the world of therapy, A. And then B, a lot of people don’t consider blow jobs to be less intimate. Listen-

GD:

I know but babe, I needed that moment looking back on it. I needed something that dramatic to wake me up to the fact that the whole world is constantly just telling women your feelings aren’t real, shut up and just keep giving the fricking blow jobs in one way or another. Because all of it, not just sex but all of it, but we can get back to sex is really just about keeping him happy, whatever happens. Your job is just to not rock the boat, to not assert your own desire, to not assert any of it and just keep things running smoothly, keep status quo. Right? And I needed that. I needed to see it that clearly. And I mean my life set, not just my sex philosophy, but my life philosophy since that moment has been as God as my witness I will never give a blow job again. Not at work, not in bed, not in a relationship, not in politics. Never again. Every time someone pats me on the head and says, “Just keep giving blow jobs.” That’s my get the hell out signal.

AW:

I mean, let’s be real, that is for sure.

GD

Literally, it’s for sure, babe.

AD:

Abby is like, “Co-sign, co-sign.” Also, in a sex-positive way clearly this is also a metaphor. Glennon is also never going to give blow jobs. But, you know, if that’s your…your partner there’s nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned blow job, I’m just saying.

GD:

Oh, I have a dear friend who loves giving blow jobs. I was stunned. I thought she was lying, I thought she was oppressed and needed to be saved like I was in an episode of the Handmaid’s Tale and she was like, “No, I swear to you.”

AD:

Yeah, I do not begrudge a blow job.

GD:

No, but you should not do what you don’t want to do.

AD:

This is correct. I just want to affirm those.

AW:

I think that with this therapist, I think that I remember when you called me, Glennon and you told me what she said and I remember feeling like well, this is unbelievable. But what you did with this information, first of all, know your therapist and know if they are good at their jobs because they are telling you literally how to live your life. And know when bad information is being handed to you. Right?

GD:

Yeah. As a person who loves therapy-

AW:

We love therapy and this-

GD:

It can be dangerous when you turn brain off.

AW:

Yeah, but here’s the thing, what I think is so cool about this, this is I think in some ways what really sparked Untamed. It was like a real awakening for you. And quite honestly it was the craziest shit I’d ever heard. And I think that allowed you to feel like we could go down this path together because it was like this was such horrible information. Anyways, I digress.

GD:

No, I agree with you. It was so clarifying. It was so clarifying to me and then a lot happened. We had a lot of things to walk through before the first time you and I had sex. And that day I flew to LA from Florida and came to a hotel room where you were… Oh my God, are you okay with right now?

AW:

Yeah. I’m getting a little embarrassed. My little cheeks are like-

GD:

I know your sweet little cheeks. But what I will say we talked about whether or not we could talk about this. Okay? And we’re telling the story vaguely for an important reason. Because that moment of walking into that hotel room knowing we were going to have sex with the first time, by the way, I had never even kissed a girl before. And we had just like dismantled our entire lives for this moment. So it would have really sucked if it didn’t go well.

AW:

You knew we were going to have sex?

GD:

Oh stop. We’ve been talking about it every freaking hour. Okay.

AD:

That’s a high pressure situation. Like what if that-

AW:

We hadn’t been in the same room, we hadn’t even touched. She has never kissed a girl. I’m like there’s a lot of things that are riding on the line for this.

GD:

Right. And also there was this thing where and I haven’t talked to anybody about this. You and I Abby have talked about it.

AW:

I’m like, “Uh, I don’t think we should go down this road then.”

GD:

So there was this vibe in our early relationship, which was Abby had been used to fricking being the sex tutor for straight girls. Right? I’m sorry, is that wrong? Did I say that wrong?

AW:

Yeah. I mean listen-

GD:

Can you say certainly that is correct?

AW:

Yes. A lot of straight women feel confused by me because I’m telling you this is true.

GD:

I know it. Listen, you think I don’t know?

AW:

Yeah. A lot of straight women have come to me and they’re like, “I feel confused by you because I’m very attracted to you and you’re also a woman and I’ve never had that before.” And so-

GD:

Okay, does that still happen? Because I need to go stab a bunch of people. Is that still happening?

AW:

No I have sending energy now so it’s fine.

GD:

Okay.

AW:

Yeah. So that’s how I would say it.

GD:

Okay so anyway, so I for me having this sexual awakening, feeling sexual and desiring, not just worrying about being desired but feeling desiring for the first time was really important to me. And so the way I want to say this is it was important to me to walk into that hotel room and be not the object of that sexual experience, but be the subject of that sexual experience. So-

AW:

That was a surprise to me, that was a surprise to me for sure. I did not know that was going to happen.

GD:

Right. So Abby thought I think she figured because of the way things are usually structured in like lesbian culture, which there’s like-

AW:

I mean look at us. I am more masculine I’m what in the lesbian world what you would call “butch,” you’re more “feminine.” And so two plus two equals four, right? People would assume that you walk into this room and that I would do all the business and that’s how it would happen. But that is not how it went down.

GD:

Not what happened sister. That is not what happened.

AD:

We’re here to tell you first.

GD:

We’re here to tell you first that it’s very important for me to be untamed in that moment. For me I wanted to take over not just like… But I wanted for myself but also for Abby. I wanted her to know that I desired her. And it was amazing. I think it was the moment that everything changed for me sexually, because for the first time I felt like I wasn’t just acting.

AD:

You were a sexual actor instead of acting.

GD:

Yes, and I wasn’t trying to recreate some freaking scene I’d seen in a movie a million times. I wasn’t saying the script that women are supposed to say from porn culture. I wasn’t arching my back the way is this what it looks like in the movie? I wasn’t playing a role. I was actually there and just responding however my body and emotions wanted to sort of respond.

AW:

And I know that a lot of people out there who are listening have their roles in their sexual identity, their sexual lives, their sexual relationships, they vary. Right? You have folks that are, what did you call it? The pillow princesses?

GD:

Pillow princess. We learned this in the comments on our Instagram when we asked about people wanting to know about sex.

AW:

And I think what was really interesting about this first moment for us is that I didn’t know that I needed to feel like I could be, and for of a better word, handled and taken care of in a sexual way, rather than being the one that always takes care of. I don’t know, I just felt like this is so different and so special. And I didn’t expect to want that because the way that not only the way that the world would assume or perceive the way I am sexually, but it just felt good to be taken care of. And I don’t know.

GD:

Yeah and it felt good to be an amazingly powerful sex queen as I was in that role.

AD:

Oh my God, there we go. We got the title of this episode. Sex queen.

AW:

Yeah. I mean I’ll give you that. I’ll say it, I’ll be the first to say it, Sex queen.

AD:

Okay. So what do you attribute the difference is? Because there’s, as you said, so many people have had that experience you had growing up. Even if they’re not like, “Oh, I’m gay.” Later on. What do you attribute the difference is between being with a woman versus being with a man in terms of how the whole sexual ecosystem works?

GD:

Okay. So you know how sometimes when you’re in a conversation with a man and the man just keeps talking. Like really you just have to if you’re with like a mansplainer and really in order to make it through the conversation, all you really have to do is nod, smile, not offer anything because they’re not going to listen anyway. Just make him feel good about himself by making your face look like you’re interested, but it requires nothing from you. So you can basically go dead inside. Okay, so that’s my 80% of my conversations with men.

And then when you’re talking to a woman who’s like really emotionally has a high emotional IQ and a high social IQ and you are in a conversation and that she’s asking you questions and it’s intense and making you think and growing you. Right? And it requires all of you. And it’s awesome but also exhausting. Right? Those are the differences of sex. It’s like sex with a guy you really just have to keep smiling, make them feel… This is such a horrific generalization. Can the listener just stay with me because this is my particular experience.

AW:

I was just going to say, disclaimer, this is your experience and not… Yeah.

GD:

Right, right, right. And then with the woman it’s… With Abby obviously she’s the only woman I’ve ever been with. It’s a conversation that requires a lot of you. And it grows me and it’s deeper and it’s transformative and it requires a lot more of me. It’s exhausting.

AD:

Yeah. Okay. So some people probably think okay, this is before and after this is it sucked and now it’s this idyllic world. But do you still… You must still have sex challenges and dealing with things. I mean you’re a couple, years in, so what are those? And do you think they’re universal to like men and women?

GD:

I’m going to let you answer first so that I know where we’re going with this before I answer.

AW:

Yeah. I think that our biggest challenge is two parts. One, I think that frequency is the challenge, but actually I think our bigger challenge is the worrying about the frequency. So Glennon is new to lesbian culture. And actually she taught me at the comments since you asked for what people wanted to hear on this episode, you have taught me this thing called lesbian deathbed**.

GD:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s so-

AW:

Can you tell the people?

GD:

Yes, if our podcast listener, you guys, you are teaching us so much. Okay, so we just sit and we read every single one of your comments and we read aloud to each other all the emails you send. And we listen to every single voicemail together because we learn so much from you all.

AW:

It’s been amazing.

GD:

The lesbian deathbed** it’s like lesbians meet and then they fell deeply, deeply in love in four minutes and then they have so much sex for like two weeks. And then the lesbian bed is where sex goes to die. Like nobody ever makes out again. And it’s because imagine in a male-female relationship it’s again a generalization, but the male is usually the one who wants to have sex.

AW:

Yeah he’s poking the bear like, “Hey, can we do this? Come on let’s go.”

AD:

Yeah, we have no poker. We are both like let’s just snuggle. Literally and figuratively you have no poker. Okay, I know why this is you guys. I know this because this is a thing for… In my relationship, I am never an initiator of sex. John’s like “Let’s have sex.” And then I’m always like, ah, and then we have sex and I say, I literally say, “That was a good idea. Great idea.” But there’s a thing. Okay, so there’s a thing called spontaneous desire and then there’s a thing called responsive desire. And spontaneous desire is when your desire starts in your mind and then goes to physical. Okay? And 75% of men have primary spontaneous desire. So they’re literally thinking about it, then they get the physical desire and that’s when they’re like, “Poke, poke, hey, want to make out?” Women, on the other hand, only 15% of women have primary spontaneous desire. So that is 85% of women are responsive desire, meaning I’m not thinking about it, I don’t have a mind to physical. I have physical to mind. So you need the initiator to get you to the physical space, to even have the desire. So if neither of you are getting there, you’re quite literally not getting there, and it’s totally normal.

AW:

That’s how we get to lesbian deathbed**. This is like when the love hormone wears off in our brain. This is why that spontaneous urge just goes away and then maybe it just never is, because that’s how we’re built.

GD:

Yeah. It’s so interesting. Does the spontaneous, does it have to be a person, is my question? I’m thinking about writing an erotic novel.

AW:

Yeah.

GD:

I love to write about things that I have no freaking clue about.

AW:

Sex queen.

GD:

Because I’m a sex freaking queen. So I want to write like a lesbian, queer, 50 shades of gay situation.

AD:

Oh my God. Amazing.

GD:

But, what I’m saying is can the impetus, can the poking be, if you don’t have a man, it could maybe be a book. Is that correct? Could that get people going, is what I’m asking?

AD:

So there’s two separate things. There is the way that your desire manifests. That’s in the spontaneous or responsive. What gets you to the place of basically arousal? Does it start mind and then go to physical or physical and then the mind? But then you have your whole, to answer your question, you have this whole structure in your brain that is a dual control model, that regulates your desire. And that has accelerators and it has brakes.

So basically any input you’re getting around you, if it smells, if, like you said, a book, totally. If it’s just physical things, as if things you’re imagining, any of those can be accelerators. But also any of those can be brakes. So that’s why, when you’re in bed at night, at the end of the day, and you’re staring at your to-do list that you have to do before you go to bed, and you’re staring at 14 piles of unfolded laundry, you might have a lot of the accelerators going on, but your brakes are stronger than that. So they’re both always happening at the same time. Also why, what’s the best sex? Everyone say it with me. Hotel sex, right? Because you’re in a hotel, there’s literally nothing around you to remind you of all the shit you have to do, so your brakes are off, and that’s why you can be more responsive to the accelerator.

AW:

I love this.

AD:

Everyone has both, and it’s literally how our brains work.

GD:

And it’s also why women, going back to our caretaker episode, if the woman is the carrier in the mind of the emotional mental load of the family, the constant care ticker going, that is why a lot of times we will have more brakes than the partner. And it goes…

AW:

Sorry, go, go, go, go, go.

AD:

No, I was just going to say, it also goes back to the economic model, because there’s evolutionary reasons why women in heterosexual situations have way more brakes than men. I mean, when you think about it, men had an entirely, no risk, high profit situation with their accelerators. Their brakes are not going at all because they have evolutionary reasons. They’re going to reproduce. They’re going to have guaranteed orgasm because that’s how sex is defined. Women have all of the risk because of complications with pregnancy, bearing children, potential death, all the things evolutionarily. And we also have low profit, because socially there’s all of that stigma attached to women with having of the sex. So, our brakes are evolutionarily, socially, and also with the construct of how our lives are structured, constantly on. Right? What were you going to say?

AW:

Yeah, I think that just to go back to the frequency a little bit, because sister, I think that what you just shared is so intense and true and real, but one thing that Glennon and I talk about probably mostly is are we having enough sex? What is enough sex? And it’s not even the actual frequency, but Glennon, you coming from a heteronormative life, marriage, that you would do this as it was an oil change, to make sure that the guy doesn’t stray or to make sure that you’re keeping in good faith with him. And for women, I’m not as worried about it, I think, as you are, because I’ve been in a lesbian life and culture for longer. And also I feel like there are seasons to sex, I think. Of course, never not once have I had sex with you and been like, gosh, that wasn’t worth it.

GD:

What a waste of fucking time.

AW:

No, never. Every single time, sister, I’m like…

AD:

That was a good idea.

AW:

Yeah, we should do that more.

GD:

Yeah.

AW:

But I also think we’re in the midst of teenage years and work, and we’ve got something, and then at night I see what you do all day long, and I look over and I know that we’re both exhausted.

GD:

But that’s a difference. That’s a difference. I never was in a relationship with a human being before you, who would look at me and think, that woman is so tired and what she wants more than anything is to close her little eyes and go to sleep. And so the last thing I’m going to do is bother her.

AD:

Require something of her.

GD:

That’s the difference between what I wanted to say to you about men and women. Right?

AD:

That’s huge, because it also goes back to the whole idea of at the worst of times, it feels like, are you freaking serious? You see me, right?

GD:

I’m almost dead.

AD:

Right. I have literally army crawled my way into this bed, but I have not shown myself one ounce of affection. But here you are with your hands wide open, just asking me to pour out a little more.

GD:

That’s how it feels.

AD:

It does feel like there and you just feel like I don’t even know what planet you’re living on, but it’s not mine.

AW:

All right. Well, let’s finish this. We got to define, what is sex? What do you define sex as, Glennon and Amanda?

GD:

Okay, this is hard, but it feels important in terms of so much of what we talk about on this podcast is that all of our problems are because of the picture in our mind of how things are supposed to be. Right? So we allow culture to define what something is for us, whether it’s body love or family or gender or beauty or sex. And then we compare what we have in our real lives to that arbitrary cultural standard, which is almost always based on commerce and power. So I do think that, while I’m not going to like nail this answer, that it is a super important question for us to begin to ask ourselves. What is sex for us? Because I can tell you that the cultural definition of sex, which is, I guess, penetration, ejaculation. I don’t know exactly what orgasm for a man.

It never felt to me, the reason why I didn’t understand it, is because nothing magical was happening for me there. There was no transcendence, no magic. So what I would say is that, Abby often says that sex is something that happens all day. That when I bring her coffee in the morning, that’s sex to her, okay. For me, that is not sex, because that’s an act of service, and that’s something that I could do for anyone. I could bring anyone coffee, right? For me, sex is this place that my mind and body and whatever the spirit is, goes to, visits. I can tell when I’m there. Okay? And for me it does happen sometimes, almost always, when we’re in bed doing sexual things. Eventually, I get to this place where I’m completely surrendered, where I’m completely defenseless, where I’m not acting, where I’m all fully present. And then I can tell you are too, and it’s like this mutual surrender where we could totally annihilate each other because we have no defenses up. And it’s something that only happens between the two of us.

But there are also these moments. So, every once in a while you’re in the kitchen and you’re cooking, and I walk by trying to look busy because when you’re cooking, I try to look busy because I feel guilty that you’re cooking, but I also don’t want to help. Okay. So I just walk around a lot. And you will stop, and if there’s music on, sometimes you’ll stop and look at me in this way that you look serious and you look a little bit predatory. And it’s like, immediately, all of me is right there in that sex place. It feels like, ooh, like I don’t know my insides, and it’s sex. I don’t know. And the thing is that I would never allow any moment like that to happen with another human being. So I think the sex, for me, has a lot to do with exclusivity. It has to do with, I will only allow myself to go to this place with you.

AW:

Good job on talking just then on all of that. That was really good. Well done. Sister, what about you? What is sex to you?

AD:

I feel like it’s important to say. And because I feel like a lot of this conversation has been framed and a lot of the way that I feel like my friends and I talk to each other about sex is, “Oh my gosh, I’m always so tired and I don’t want to have sex, and how do I deal with this? And he always wants to,” or whatever it is. And I just feel like no one ever talks about the opposite problem, which is when you have been sexually abandoned by your partner. And I think it’s probably one of the loneliest places to be, which is what happened to me in my first marriage, that my husband did not want to have sex with me. And so, I think there’s this whole way of being in the world. When you’re a woman, your job is to be pursued.

And that the person you’re with always wants to have sex with you, and that you just have to work it into your life. But no one ever talks about the woman who does want to have sex, and to have a partner that doesn’t want to sleep with you and be in a world in which everyone else is talking about how much of a hassle it is to have to navigate their husband’s desire for them, to admit that you have a husband who has no desire for you, is a very, very lonely doubly, lonely place to be. And so I just want to say that, even though it’s a little bit embarrassing to say, because I just have been there and it’s very lonely and hard, and I think that it’s important to recognize.

If you are listening to this and you are in that place, that I was also in that place. And it is a very hard to feel like there isn’t something very, very wrong with you. It’s a special slice of hell to be in a marriage when the person doesn’t want you. Having been in both places, it is much, much easier and more socially acceptable to be a woman who doesn’t want to have sex with their husband, then to be a wife whose husband doesn’t want to have sex with them. I just want to say that, that I wonder if it’s happening to a lot of people, but it is lonely and no one talks about it.

GD:

Well, thank you for talking about it.

AD:

But I think what I’m trying to figure out is just what are my sexual values? Because I feel like I have grown up and I assigned these values to sex that I don’t think work for me and are working for my life going forward, about this worth thing that is transferred. I just want to live in a world where… We just talked a few weeks ago in the body episode about the worst thing that a woman could do is let herself go. Don’t let yourself go. Don’t let yourself go. And then in sex, we’re like, why can’t you let yourself go? Just let yourself go. So we’re living in this world where we’re constantly expected to do both things.

GD:

Yes. It’s like the control yourself, control yourself, control yourself. Women, control your hair, control your voice, control your anger, control your… And then all of a sudden, let go of control in bed, be wild. That idea of, well, I want a lady in the streets and a devil in the sheets. Can’t do all that. Can’t do all that.

AD:

Yep. Yep.

GD:

But that’s like that thing, sister, where it’s like the credit card machine. That stresses me out every time where it’s like, “Do not remove card, do not remove card, do not remove card, remove card, remove card!”

AD:

Remove card right freakin’ now! Beep, beep!

GD:

Yes. It’s just that change of what my value is as a woman, it’s one thing outside the bedroom and then it has to be something completely different inside.

AW:

Well I kind of disagree with you guys on this. I mean…

AD:

Good.

AW:

Yeah, for me, I think that sex is happening all day long for me.

GD:

Well, that’s unfortunate to hear. I’m never letting you leave the house again.

AD:

How many times a week? She’s like, “How many times a day?”

AW:

It’s happening between me and you all day long.

GD:

Oh, okay. Good, good, good. Got it.

AW:

So all day long, right? The beginning of the day, when you… The reason why I think, when you hand me that coffee in the morning, I don’t let people do things for me.

GD:

That’s true.

AW:

At all. I do things for myself. So when I let you do something for me, it’s because I do know that I want to be taken care of on some level. And that is the beginning. So when you talk about the Venn diagram, I just think that my Venn diagram is a little bit bigger of that spot of intimacy that we kind of talk about sex. So this might sound so weird, and I’m sure people have this fetish, but when you take a bite of the food that I’ve made you and you tell me how you like it, I love that. That makes my brain light up. When you hand me the coffee and when we have a day and we come back together and we talk about the thing that happened in the day, those are things foreplay wise that are getting my brain to remember that we don’t have to be lesbian deathbeds**, we don’t have to operate in that way.

GD:

So it’s connection to you. It’s any sort of real connection is sex to you.

AW:

Yeah. Because I believe that the pinnacle is this place that you talk of, G. The pinnacle to get to the act of sex is this other realm, right? But the conversation that has to happen from morning until that moment of the act, that is very real and very sex to me as well.

GD:

I love it.

Well, I want to ask sister one more question, and then we’ll get to our Next Right Thing. I want to ask you-

AD:

Oh Lord.

GD:

Well, we talked about our sex challenge, which I would say is I am constantly worried that we’re not having enough sex. When I told Abby about lesbian deathbed**, she said, “I’ve never heard of that before. That’s so interesting.” And I explained it and she said these words. “Oh, I guess I just didn’t know that that was called lesbian deathbed** because I just thought that was life.” That’s literally what she said to me.

AW:

That’s true.

GD:

But honestly, I mean, we were at this retreat thing and there was a sex therapist there. And the sex therapist I talked to said the first thing everyone asks her is what’s enough? What’s enough? Am I in trouble? What’s the number? What’s the number? So I have no answers for that, I just know everybody’s worried about it. But can you tell us, what are your sex challenges? When you think about you and John or whatever, what do you think… What do you worry about?

AD:

I mean, I think I… before I read Nagoski’s book Come As You Are, which everyone I think should read, she’s the one who talked about the dual control and the responsiveness and stuff. Before I learned about the responsive desire, I was thinking there was something seriously wrong with me that I didn’t have that kind of spontaneous, “Oh, I can’t wait to jump in the sheets” thing. So that, I thought, “Why am I not initiating half the time? And is that a problem? Is that a lack of general desire?” So I think the frequency is a situation too. I think everyone is pretty worried about it, like am I having enough sex? What does this indicate about relationships?

I think on the letting yourself go thing, I just don’t… Same as I look back on growing up and what I feel like I should have done differently, I’m wondering what is 80-year-old me going to look back on now and be like, why the hell didn’t you? If I really could just let myself go… What part of the universe am I missing because of me? I actually have a very generous, ridiculous, awesome partner, praise be to God. I like having sex with him very much. But this whole idea of like, I can’t talk during sex.

GD:

Oh my god, oh my god, me neither. I am like, I don’t… I can talk to anyone on the street, I can tell you exactly how I feel, I’m giving directions and tell… I’m commanding the ship all day, what is that?

AW:

What is that? I’m asking. Like, why?

AD:

I don’t know.

GD:

It drives Abby crazy. Tell the truth, it does drive you crazy.

AW:

Well, I just don’t understand it. We trust each other the most and we’re doing the most intimate thing, and then you just go silent.

GD:

And we’re both professional speakers.

AW:

Well, I mean, look, you like to talk. Our whole relationship is talking.

GD:

Except during sex.

AW:

And then we get into sex and you don’t even say a word.

AD:

I can’t even respond.

GD:

No.

AD:

I’m just like…

GD:

Every once in a while I say to my own brain, “Okay, I feel like you should moan or something right now.” And then I’ll be like, “Uh.”

AW:

No! See, that makes me feel sick. Because I want the moan when I’m doing something that’s requiring a moan.

GD:

I know, I know.

AW:

This is bullshit.

GD:

I’m being vulnerable.

AW:

No, I know. But here’s the thing. I don’t understand this. This is no judgment because-

GD:

No, I don’t feel any at all coming from you right now.

AW:

I’m sure that there’s layers and layers upon why this is the case. But I feel like there is a lack of trust with yourself.

GD:

Yeah.

AW:

And that makes me feel like you don’t trust me, that there’s something missing.

AD:

I think it’s an inhibition and it is a level of vulnerability and just discomfort that really doesn’t have to do with the other person. It has to do with… It’s like a mind body connection, and I’ve gotten to the place where I can make myself totally vulnerable in body. And as you said, Glennon, and like give up that and like actually reach this place where I come outside of my brain, which is the only time where I can come outside of my brain in my entire life. But then the idea of reactivating my brain and bringing it to that spot?

GD:

Exactly!

AD:

I’m like, what? I don’t even know how to… I literally don’t know how to do that. I’ve just disconnected my brain for the first time since the last time we had sex. And now I’m supposed to fuse them back together or something?

GD:

To remember sentences and say them? And by the way, I only know a couple sentences about sex. What else is there? It’s like, “That feels good. Keep going. Faster, slower.” That’s all I’ve got. I don’t have a bunch of script ideas.

AD:

But even saying those words you just said…

AW:

She doesn’t say them.

AD:

I am sweating. I am sweating. I am sweating at the idea.

GD:

I am, too.

AD:

What is it?

AW:

She doesn’t say them. She thinks them, maybe.

GD:

I say that feels good. I’ve said that several times. I remember each time, I was very proud of myself.

AD:

Oh god. I don’t know. Can someone tell us what that’s about? I don’t understand how powerful, assertive people…

GD:

I don’t either.

AD:

… don’t…

AW:

It’s like the most intimate thing that you can do. And to not have the ability… I mean, I think that, look, I love you both so much.

GD:

Yes, you do.

AW:

And you guys are allowed to be however you are in your sexual experiences. But I think it would be really… I think it’s a control thing.

AD:

Yeah, maybe.

AW:

I think it’s like a deep down there, like a need to… a vulnerability to stay… to not be…

GD:

Embarrass yourself?

AD:

Yes.

AW:

Embarrassed or something.

AD:

Yeah, maybe it’s embarrassing. Maybe it’s embarrassing.

GD:

Of course it’s embarrassing.

AW:

But do you know what feels a little bit embarrassing? Is for your partner to be doing sexual activity on and there to be no response.

GD:

That does sound embarrassing.

AW:

That’s also embarrassing.

GD:

Oh god. Oh god, okay.

AD:

This subtitle, this episode is Sex Queen: Sex is Embarrassing.

GD:

Silent, I didn’t say I was a loud queen.

AW:

Silent Sex Queen.

GD:

Silent Sex Queen is the name of this new novel that I’m working on. No.

AW:

Silent Sex Queen Embarrasses Her Partner.

GD:

But also, it’s important to have things to work on. And this is a category that…

AW:

We’re not perfect.

GD:

We’re not perfect. Okay y’all, let’s go on to the Next Right Thing. We have so many amazing sex questions that we’re going to save them all until the next episode. And I’m-

AD:

We’re saving ourselves.

GD:

… sure you’re dying to hear our answers.

Our Next Right Thing is this: We want everybody to think about what is sex, okay? Because we really believe that the distance between our real life experience and our real life desires and what the world holds up as what sex is and should be, that the distance between those two is where all of our pain is. So I want everybody to think about if it wasn’t based on pleasing someone else or it wasn’t based on servicing your relationship, if it had only to do with yourself, what is sex to you?

AW:

I think also maybe they should have this conversation with the person that they might be in a sexual relationship with at some point.

GD:

I love that idea. I mean, isn’t it amazing that we can be in sexual relationships with people for decades and never sit down and talk about this.

AW:

Yeah.

GD:

Like, what is sex? What makes you come alive in that way? What makes you go dead? What takes you to that place? What are your accelerators? What is sex to you?

AW:

What are your brakes? Yeah, that’s good.

GD:

Yeah. So let’s think about that this week. I would like to end this episode by saying that if we can do what we just did, Amanda and Abby, we can do anything. Okay? We can do hard things. Which actually suddenly sounds very sexual to me, and I’m going to try to unthink about that forever.

**Apparently the term is actually “lesbian bed death” but perhaps we should reconsider since I think our wording may be more accurate.